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  #51  
Old 05-23-2016, 03:47 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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I wish you would start another thread instead of making this one get away from the point more and more. I actually wanted to discuss Hebrews 4 with people. not debate the same old same old with you.

but it's a lost cause now. Phew. the thread is ruined
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  #52  
Old 05-23-2016, 04:56 PM
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Re: Sword at the entrance

Brother Blume, I will post some thoughts on Hebrews 4 later tonight Lord willing. This is a good subject to discuss.
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  #53  
Old 05-23-2016, 08:15 PM
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Brother Blume, I will post some thoughts on Hebrews 4 later tonight Lord willing. This is a good subject to discuss.
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  #54  
Old 05-23-2016, 10:27 PM
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Re: Sword at the entrance

There is no substantial difference between faith and belief in the Bible, regardless of translation, since they are founded upon the same Greek word: pistis and its variants.

Yes, James wrote the devils also believe, and tremble. But their belief isn't accounted to them for righteousness, the same way a human believer in the Messiah experiences righteousness accounted to them by God through faith in Jesus.

This doesn't mean there is a difference between belief and faith. It means there is a different end result.
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  #55  
Old 05-23-2016, 11:48 PM
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Re: Sword at the entrance

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Hebrews 4 falls on the heels of Hebrews 3 where we read all of Israel did not enter Canaan. And 4 begins saying we can fall as well, and the problem is failure to mix the word with faith.

Let's look at that a bit more closely. What does a 'failure to mix the word with faith' actually encompass?

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
(Hebrews 3:7-12)

Here we see that the warning to Christians is to 'take heed... lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.'

Failure to mix the word with faith is the result of 'an evil heart of unbelief'. It is evil, it is a heart of unbelief. This indicates that this failure is not passive. It does not consist in merely 'failing to do something'. Rather, it is active. It is a heart 'of unbelief', a heart that has decided to not believe, to disbelieve. And thus it is 'evil'.

It is also a 'departing from the living God'. It is in effect an apostasy, a backsliding from God. There is no 'oopsie' involved, it is a deliberate act of abandoning God due to having an evil heart of unbelief. It is amazing how so many things WE think of as being minor, are by the Word of God condemned in the strongest terms. The Word truly is a 'discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart'. The Word discerns and reveals the TRUE intents of the heart. In the case here under discussion, it reveals the characteristics of 'an evil heart of unbelief' that 'departs from the living God'. Too often we, in our human ingenuity, attempt to minimize the seriousness of spiritual matters. The heart of man is desperately wicked, who can know it? God can know it, and God can reveal it by His Word.

But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
(Hebrews 3:13-14)

We need to be exhorting one another continually. Why? Because failure to do so will allow hearts to become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. It is sin to disbelieve the Word of God. It is sin to have an evil heart of unbelief. It is sin to depart from the living God. And if we fail to encourage one another daily, that sin of unbelief will find opportunity to spring up.

We see here also that we are partakers of Christ IF... IF we hold the beginning of our confidence STEADFAST to the end. It is not enough to have once believed in Christ. It is not enough to have 'gotten saved' at some point in your life. You MUST hold fast that original hope and confidence in Christ as your Atonement, Saviour, Propitiation, Mediator, Intercessor, Lord, Passover sacrifice, in short - everything that Christ is presented to you in the Gospel. You must hold fast to that confidence 'to the end'. That is, to the end of your life here in this world. Salvation is a DAILY, ongoing, continual thing, not a one time event in the past. Christ is the living Bread, and just as Israel under Moses received their manna DAILY, and had to gather it daily, so too we must feed on Christ DAILY.

Did you gather your daily bread TODAY? Or are you trying to save it up' from yesterday, last month, last year, fifteen years ago? 'Bless the Lord, I got saved, sanctified, and filled with the Holy Ghost back in...' And? WHERE ARE YOU TODAY? Yesterday's bread won't feed you TODAY.

You know, when a person stops eating food, their body begins to digest itself. It starts digesting the fat cells. Soon, once that has run out, it begins to digest muscle tissue. Eventually, the body, digesting itself, wastes away and shuts down due to lack of nutrients. When we quit feeding DAILY on Christ, the heavenly manna, we will begin to 'feed' on the FLESH. And eventually, we will die from lack of spiritual nutrition.

I need to stand before God TODAY. You stand before God TODAY. And so we need to be covered by the blood of Jesus TODAY. Otherwise, we stand naked and exposed to the wrath of God. I'm so glad Jesus is my Saviour TODAY!

While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Hebrews 3:15-19)

Now what exactly happened here? The spies went in and saw the land. Ten of them said 'there be giants over thar!' Two said 'we can take 'em, cuz God is on our side!' And the people hearkened to the ten spies, and plotted rebellion against Moses, and schemed to go back to Egypt. And God swore that generation would not enter in. Now, notice:

But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD. Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:
(Numbers 14:21-23)

These people had seen God's glory. They had also provoked God ten times, and had refused to listen to His Voice. And this was simply the final act of rebellion. (There's a sermon in here somewhere, probably a good one, too...)

The rebellion in attempting to depart from God ('let us go make a captain and go back to Egypt') was the FINAL STRAW, it was the final stage of their evil heart of unbelief. When a person literally apostasizes from Christ, finally goes atheist or just completely goes back to the world (total backsliding), it is usually not something that happened overnight. It built up over time. There was something wrong way back in the beginning. Now I am not talking about someone who was horribly abused by someone in the church, and so they go off the deep end. That's not what is being discussed. What is being discussed is that evil heart of unbelief, that evil heart that constantly, here a little there a little, provokes God with unbelief, doubting, lack of faith, and breaks out in open rebellion against God.

Remember, the apostle says we need to encourage one another daily, OTHERWISE this is what is likely to happen - somebody somewhere is going to fester in unbelief. That little seed of doubt, that little thought of 'Well, I don;t know about THAT. Hath God said...? will grow and fester like a cancer, like a noxious weed, and will ultimately bear fruit in an apostasy and backsliding straight into the lake of fire.

Yes, indeed we should 'fear' lest the same thing happen among us.

One final thought... this was being addressed to a community of believers. The community (the church) is responsible for looking out for its members. We are responsible for one another. If the community fails to encourage one another daily, somebody somewhere may indeed fall away. I wonder how many people have fallen away, and we blame them instead of shouldering some of that blame ourselves? Sure, they are to blame. After all, it was THEIR evil heart of unbelief that led them to depart from God. But, we can do much to prevent such things from happening. We can limit the casualties, if not prevent them altogether! So, how many of those who have fallen aside, who have drifted too far from the shore, who drowned in the sea of worldliness and unbelief, could have been saved if we had simply thrown out the lifeline? If we had exhorted one another daily? If we took DILIGENCE to see that EVERYBODY makes it to glory? We are, after all, a FELLOWSHIP. That means we are fellows on the same ship, going to the same destination. So if someone is leaning too far overboard, or walking on the rails while the storm surges, LOVE constrains us to reach out and pull them back to safety, to warn them 'GET BACK FROM THERE, there's only DEATH out there!' How many fell overboard off the good ole ship of Zion, because we were too busy playing shuffleboard on the poop deck?

But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
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  #56  
Old 05-24-2016, 07:58 AM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: Sword at the entrance

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
see how you send little jabs like this all the time?
just an observation; i tried to make that as neutral as possible. I even do it myself. Prolly everyone does.
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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I got my beliefs from the bible. and I never explained anything to you about what I think of faith versus believing, by the way.
yet that is all i am asking here; your past comments indicate that you believe what VS is saying, that belief = faith. But there is a concept of faith that differs from belief, as outlined in Scripture and the various posts here, and Hebrews 4 changes according to one's understanding of this.
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  #57  
Old 05-24-2016, 08:39 AM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Sword at the entrance

Quote:
Originally Posted by shazeep View Post
just an observation; i tried to make that as neutral as possible. I even do it myself. Prolly everyone does.
yet that is all i am asking here; your past comments indicate that you believe what VS is saying, that belief = faith. But there is a concept of faith that differs from belief, as outlined in Scripture and the various posts here, and Hebrews 4 changes according to one's understanding of this.
I did not read anything into Hebrews 4. I used its term and related the thoughts,

How does the distinction between faith and belief change Hebrews 4?
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  #58  
Old 05-24-2016, 08:49 AM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: Sword at the entrance

well, what is the distinction between belief and faith?
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  #59  
Old 05-24-2016, 08:56 AM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Sword at the entrance

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Originally Posted by shazeep View Post
well, what is the distinction between belief and faith?
Faith has two different definitions. 1) A certain understanding of doctrine, or 2) trust in things we did not see but related by word from God to the extent we do something about it. It depends upon which of the two valid definitions we consider. The one I am considering when I read Hebrews 4 is the definition of trust in that which cannot be seen but has been related by God's Word. The Hebr 11:1 definition, since Hebrews 4 is in the same book.
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Last edited by mfblume; 05-24-2016 at 09:00 AM.
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  #60  
Old 05-24-2016, 09:11 AM
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Re: Sword at the entrance

That being said, satan has not the faith that moves him to do something about it.
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