"Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

The blamelessness that the minister must hold is tied to the statement of one wife. Since he is to have one wife they believed he would have a household.
This household would be an indicator to how he would oversee the church. Now, the second indicator is that his children obey him. No children? Then the indicator that Paul set up is missing some ingredients. So, how much of this outline is to be kept and how much of it do we use. Religious liberties aren't be pushed by me. I'm just reading the epistle. So, are these suggestions or are the commands by the apostle on finding qualified ministers?

The problem as I see it is just where does Paul direct this to ministers. What is a minister in the first place?
Paul specifically uses the term "Overseer" not one of the gifts of ministry as given in Ephesians 4. What does a overseer over see? And while we are at it, who does a deacon serve. As the office means "waiter". How doe we jump to the conclusion that Paul is speaking of spiritual oversight, instead of administrative over sight of the church, such as a deacon board would serve in our day and time.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Here is the problem with your theory. Let's say you have two men. Both lived equally ungodly lives. Both got saved in the same moment in the same church. The only difference in these two repentant sinners is that one is divorced and remarried. You seem to imply that the one who is divorced and remarried is automatically disqualified from 5 fold ministry for a divorce and remarriage that happened in his unsaved past. Really? He is disqualified from 5 fold ministry because he didn't rule well in his own home before he was saved? He can be in 5 fold ministry if he was a murderer. drug dealer, and even an adulterer in his unsaved past. But if he was divorced and remarried in his unsaved past, he is disqualified from 5 fold ministry?

We are again confusing church offices with ministries. No man is disqualified from ministry. The office of a bishop or deacon yes. The scripture is clear enough to me about husband of one wife. Both men can be used of God and even behind a pulpit since that is what many are hanging up on. The office of a superintendent position is not just a ministry, but a church responsibility. When we are placing men in authority positions which deal with church collections, people's private council, and many times a community figure, etc.... We must raise the bar for gospel not to be blasphemed.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Brother, I'm sorry you feel that is what I'm doing.

Brother it is an outline on how the ministers are to conduct themselves. It is rules that the apostle laid down. 1 Timothy 3:2 Paul states that the man must be blameless the husband of one wife. His blamelessness is directly tied to the faithfulness to his wife. If it means plural wives, then Paul is saying that being blameless is not having plural wives? Pretty confusing if you hang on to the plurality of wives view of this verse. They had to be married because the ruling and overseeing of the home is what was used by Paul as an indicator on how they would oversee the congregation. Pretty simple.

His blamelessness wasn't just directly tied to his faithfulness to one wife, but it was across the board. IMO bankruptcy disqualifies a man from church offices. I think convicted felons are disqualified from church offices. I am not saying that they can't take part in the ministry, on the contrary ministry is not an option for Christians but it is a must. I am only saying that they are not eligible for church offices. It is not expedient for the church to have people in church leadership offices whom the community has a load of dirt.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Good Samaritan was adamant that someone who is divorced and remarried cannot be a bishop. I simply want to know if he feels that applies to divorce and remarriage in one's unsaved past. You don't seem to want to answer the question. I hope Good Samaritan will.

Yes I feel it does.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Wow
Eight pages of discussion on a subject from the wrong point of view, in the first place.
How do we jump from the "Gifts" God in Ephesians 4, to offices in the church in Timothy? They are two differing subjects. The very definitions of a Bishop and Deacon should let us know that one is not the same as another. The whole mind set is based on traditions passed down from the Roman Catholic church, that have been accepted and never properly studied out, just as Sunday church as apposed to Sabbath keeping, and a barrage of other traditions that were passed down from the RCC that are not bible but rather traditions.

As for an example of a minister that fell into sin and was restored, what about David. The man scripture says was a man after God's heart. Who not only committed adultery but murder. Yet God did not remove him as king.

When one removes the mindset propagated by tradition, scripture does not teach the authoritive hierarchy of ministerial offices as propagated within most churches.

Just my two cents, carry on.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

The problem as I see it is just where does Paul direct this to ministers. What is a minister in the first place?
Paul specifically uses the term "Overseer" not one of the gifts of ministry as given in Ephesians 4. What does a overseer over see? And while we are at it, who does a deacon serve. As the office means "waiter". How doe we jump to the conclusion that Paul is speaking of spiritual oversight, instead of administrative over sight of the church, such as a deacon board would serve in our day and time.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

His blamelessness wasn't just directly tied to his faithfulness to one wife, but it was across the board. IMO bankruptcy disqualifies a man from church offices. I think convicted felons are disqualified from church offices. I am not saying that they can't take part in the ministry, on the contrary ministry is not an option for Christians but it is a must. I am only saying that they are not eligible for church offices. It is not expedient for the church to have people in church leadership offices whom the community has a load of dirt.

One of the leading UPC pastors in Wisconsin is a convicted felon. When he was 17 he backslid and started running with the wrong crowd. When he was 18 he snatched a pizza delivery guy's money pouch from him and ran. When the police caught him, they found that he was carrying a pocket knife (something he had done out of habit since childhood). Because of the pocket knife he was charged with "armed robbery". He was in prison for 2 years.

That all took place 20 years ago. In prison he repented and came back to God. He has lived a holy, consecrated life since and has led dozens of young people to Christ.

So...how is he not qualified for 5-fold ministry?

[shazeep]

amen

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Originalist

One of the leading UPC pastors in Wisconsin is a convicted felon. When he was 17 he backslid and started running with the wrong crowd. When he was 18 he snatched a pizza delivery guy's money pouch from him and ran. When the police caught him, they found that he was carrying a pocket knife (something he had done out of habit since childhood). Because of the pocket knife he was charged with "armed robbery". He was in prison for 2 years.

That all took place 20 years ago. In prison he repented and came back to God. He has lived a holy, consecrated life since and has led dozens of young people to Christ.

So...how is he not qualified for 5-fold ministry?

I am not talking about the ministry.... Disqualified from and administrative church office. My interp. of the scripture matters little because as you said he is holding office anyway. I am not saying this to tear down people who are in such a position. I am just saying this is what the biblical criteria means to me and if I were voting (which is another debate about voting for church offices). It would affect how I voted for someone to pastor at our local church.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I am not talking about the ministry.... Disqualified from and administrative church office. My interp. of the scripture matters little because as you said he is holding office anyway. I am not saying this to tear down people who are in such a position. I am just saying this is what the biblical criteria means to me and if I were voting (which is another debate about voting for church offices). It would affect how I voted for someone to pastor at our local church.

And it indeed should affect such a decision. I completely agree. But if he had been thoroughly vetted by higher-ups, I would also have to take that into consideration.