Elephant in the room - accusation of judging

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

All I have said is they're lost and we're saved. THAT HAS NOTHING to do with the way we treat anyone.

ok, and all i am saying is that you are lost, according to Scripture, and there is a better way, whether i can demonstrate it or not. And you haven't thanked me yet!

SHow me why I am lost and show me what I lack. You just SAY it without any evidence, contrary to me providing evidence for what I say.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

The point is, Zeep, ,it does not matter. It matters what God knows about a heart.

the point might be that it does not matter from your perspective, but how about we ask a Catholic?

And how might "It matters what God knows about a heart" conflict with "all Catholics are lost?"

Catholics patently don't trust in the work of the cross to make them righteous like the bible says we must do. Ask them.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

I really mean it when I say people can make all the claims they want, but it is ONLY what GOD sees in their hearts that determines if they are really saved. See, here is what you miss.

Ty, Oh Great One; may a seeker ask how you justify "all Catholics are lost" in this context? (note that i cut off the bottom of this paragraph, which says that we can only go by what people say, as i get that you mean WE an only go by what people say, which is patently untrue and also unscriptural, but one hairball at a time.)

ok, i see you fixed it here

Even Jesus said words are akin to fruit in the sense that we can tell a person's heart by their words. Though a person may SAY a good thing they rehearsed since they know people want to hear that good thing, but it's not really in their hearts, eventually the REAL words form the heart come out over time.

and it is the fact that out of the heart, the mouth speaks reflects that saying "All Catholics are lost" will also be reflected in other areas of your ministry that keeps me coming here, regardless of how well you might treat a disadvantaged Muslim you happen to run across, which i don't doubt in your case, and may be all that matters; for the laity at least.

Again, you're so vague and oddly elusive in your posts. I cannot get your point.

Let me try. When someone claims a way to be saved is by doing good deeds, more than bad deeds in most claims, that reveals they know nothing about the trust we must have solely in the work of the cross for righteousness. So, that is plain as plain can be.

What IT TAKES to be saved is to genuinely believe god's work on the cross makes us righteous. But only God truly knows if a heart believes like that. But when someone flatly states they don't believe that but believe some other method, then we know they do not have it in their hearts. lol. When they claim they have it in their hearts we cannot know. Simple. If you cannot see that, then no sense talking.

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Originally Posted by shazeep

Quote:
And this suggests--practically demands--some change of behavior on our part; we treat those we deem "lost" differently than we do those we deem "saved," if for no other reason than that we have made this judgement; and it is not for the better.

Wrong.

you might wish it was wrong, and you might even convince me that it is wrong in your case, but it is not wrong, Mike. It is like saying "stating that all Catholics are lost does not mean that that sentiment will be reflected in other areas of my ministry." If nothing else, you will preach to those you deem "lost," and maybe be quicker to point out where they are "wrong" in your opinion, even when they can demonstrate how they might be right, etc.

What you may not realize is the damage done by your opinion, tacit acceptance of drone bombing civilians, etc.

Sorry cannot follow your words here, AGAIN. You need to type out more of what you're thinking, because you're missing some thought points that render your post not easy to understand.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Sorry to jump in the middle of this, but this is a very disturbing post, shaz.
Basically you are saying that Christianity is not any better than any other religion.
So, Christ death on the Cross was of none effect.
This is truly "Christianity without the Cross".

well, i guess your feeling here is likely shared, so let me say that Christianity does not necessarily contain Christ, and might indeed be worse than any other religion when it is abused precisely because it purports to represent Christ.

i have nothing but respect for a seeker who understands Christ's message, but the Cross may be made of no effect in a spiritual fashion, possibly by those crying "Lord, Lord" the loudest, which i think would be the more tragic sin. Why else would Christ go to such lengths to command that we follow the Good Samaritan's example, and teach related parables, and indicate such things as the failure of those who cry "Lord," and those who block entry through the door, but do not enter themselves, and many, many other passages.

Does this make Pauline instructions of no effect? I don't think so, but i do think these are related to indicate the spiritual nature of Christ's sacrifice, which are often obscured by doctrine, so much so that we might declare people we do not know "lost" because of it, and Christ's commands for daily interaction are rendered moot; "Love one another is 9/10ths of the law" is ridiculed, the Good Samaritan becomes lost without your understanding, and all manner of Scripture is corrupted by this.

So i don't suggest abandoning your understanding, but i do suggest that your understanding was taught to you by men, the same way it was taught to me, and will seem right to us simply because everyone believes it, but it is a good idea to at least examine what is being stressed to us and what is being ignored, especially if they vary with Christ's Words on a matter.

I mean let's be honest, you have never heard "if you want to follow Christ, abandon your family and leave your home, without an extra shirt or purse," yet that is exactly what the Apostles did. And yes, that was modified afterward, but we don't hear much of that one, either.

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Originally Posted by shazeep

I believe and know the bible THAT MUCH that it's not a matter of what qualities muslims or myself have, but rather what the object of our faith is. And the cross of Jesus makes the difference. You speak more of OUR crosses by FAR than the cross of Jesus. In fact, I cannot recall ANYTHING you ever said that focuses on the cross of Jesus. As I see it, your religion is a cross carrying religion that involves nothing to do with Jesus Christ's cross. And THAT makes you think carrying the cross can be done by muslims because you think they can deny themselves in some areas, and not even believe Jesus died.

In reality, the biggest part of carrying the cross is ignored by them. And that is denying themselves of the belief that they can be good enough to go to heaven.

ok well as i see it, you are enmeshed in a pretty violent form of Jesus Cult, which is not the same as faith in Christ, but better people than me have already written about that. I'll be sure and let the GS know that he cannot be saved, despite Christ holding him up as an example.

I never said the good samaritan cannot be saved. There you go with that lying nonsense again. What in the world gives you the idea the good samaritan cannot be saved? I already said Christ's point is not how to be saved in that story.

Maybe this might make the point clear:

If a murderer goes to a cashier and pays for a pair of socks, anyone can point to the murderer and say THAT IS HOW YOU PAY FOR SOCKS. Is the statement saying the socks are purchased in the manner in which the murderer did it standing an indication the murderer's murderous acts are okay? No.

Similarly, Jesus is not saying if the good samartian is lost or not. That story is not about how to get saved. It is how Christians should act after they are saved.

Get it?

If not, why on earth do you keep saying I propose the good samaritan cannot be saved? This time write out your thoughts that you are obviously thinking but not expressing, leaving readers puzzled about what your point might be.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Howso? I cast away all thining that my good works can save me. I looked ONLY to the cross for salvation! I cast away all inklings that my good works earn me salvation for heaven. So how do i not cast away all thoughts that my good works can earn salvation if i cast away all thoughts that my good works can earn salvation?

i suggest that there is a sense in which you would not touch the cross with a ten foot pole, even as you write books on the subject, but God would have to show you that i guess. And take that for what it is worth, we all fall short.

i gotta run, and kudos for having the stones to express your opinions here, btw. I would suggest that your opinions will agree with the world's much less someday, but then that is surely also true of me. But i am not a pastor, ok? And i would like to reiterate that there is another Bible, if you read with different eyes, that will lead you away from "believe as i do or be damned," which is a lie designed to appeal to our narcissism, and unfortunately works great.

I don't CONCRETELY believe people must believe as I do or be lost. What I believe is necessary for salvation is obviously what I think they should believe. But I will not say that I am beyond correction when I say that, except when it comes to first of all believing Jesus ACTUALLY died on a cross and that is the basis for salvation.

My point is they must believe what the bible says or be lost. You keep missing that. And that is expressly noted in a muslim who claims they do not believe the Lord was crucified, when the bible says he was and we must believe that to begin the first step toward salvation, which salvation culminates in also believing that death is required for our righteousness.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That's the point I was looking to express.

ok, well i suggest that we are indoctrinated into the legal aspects of salvation first, and the spiritual aspects are given short shrift, and even annulled, as evidenced by your, a "Christian" pastor's, past statements, which i think we are seeing that even you don't really believe.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok, well i suggest that we are indoctrinated into the legal aspects of salvation first, and the spiritual aspects are given short shrift, and even annulled, as evidenced by your, a "Christian" pastor's, past statements, which i think we are seeing that even you don't really believe.

Where you get your ideas, no one knows. You speak in such riddling vague ways and do not express all your thought processes you write about. Be more comprehensive, S.

HOW am I indoctrinated into legal aspects first?

HOW do I regard spiritual things as a short "shrift," whatever that is?

No wonder you don't talk actual biblical passages. It looks like an aversion to getting to the actual point.

[shazeep]

well, you really mean it when you say that people must do those works in your "church" in order to "be saved," too;

No. I never said that and neither do I believe it.

my meaning is that your theology demands a conversion experience, as evidenced by your definition of "speaking in tongues" etc., and other Christian religions, and possibly even other OP sects are adjudged "lost" by you based upon their lack of accomplishment.