Conundrum: Not saved by works. Condemned by them?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by jfrog

So your system is works based.

yes, and even worse it is sin-based. If you are forgiven, why are you focusing on sin and redemption, laying the foundation over and over? For the same reason you find it necessary to dismiss and belittle people whose comments may not even be for you, possibly. I'll leave frog, you're telling it better anyway

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jfrog

How is it that our works condemn us if they cannot save us?

Is there a certain verse's statement you are implying here in your question?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Is there a certain verse's statement you are implying here in your question?

I think there are many that say we are not saved by works. I also think there are many that speak of condemnation for those that do not maintain good works after their faith in Christ.

Maybe I'm mistaken?

[votivesoul]

Just a couple of points to be made:

1.) When the Bible speaks of works, and their inability to save a person, one must always remember the context:

Works that cannot save, or dead works, are those efforts made by people to maintain personal righteousness and holiness before God, on their own, as a result of, and this is key, fulfilling the requirements of Mosaic Law!

Paul and James, more than anyone else, address works. And in context, especially in Paul's writings, the works in question have to do with the Law of Moses. James is slightly different. James doesn't address the Law of Moses so much as he shows how in the Abrahamic covenant, obedience to the commands of God were just as necessary as mental assent.

So, we Gentiles, grafted in, think of works like this: we think of helping little old ladies across the street, volunteering at a homeless shelter, donating money or clothing to the Salvation Army or Goodwill, and etc.

We see those "works", (as examples, there are of course, many more) and we say, "Aha! According to Holy Scripture, those works cannot save us", never realizing the Scriptures were never talking about those kinds of "works".

The Holy Scriptures, when referring to works, refers to things like circumcision, temple offerings, eating kosher, new moon and Sabbath day observances, and etc.

Paul makes it very clear in Galatians and Romans, that such works, in keeping the Mosaic Law, only allow a person to make themselves righteous apart from the righteousness of God.

But as he shows, if a man would seek to be made righteous by his religious works, works of the Law of Moses, he must perfectly keep all of them, without fail, always. Paul shows us this is impossible, because the Law, through the weakness of the flesh, actually activates the law of sin in our members, and causes us to lust beyond human control, for sinful behaviors. He shows that only the Holy Spirit and grace from God can empower a person to receive an imparted state of righteousness.

Therefore, if one's works condemn a person, it's only because such a one attempted to find righteousness with God through the keeping of Mosaic Law. Essentially, the person in question is seeking to be in covenant with God through a covenant that no longer exists.

Read Romans 7. We become dead to the law, so that the law has no hold over us, when we, by faith, and with faith, enter new covenant with Christ. Paul uses the analogy of a married woman. As long as her husband lives, she is bound to him. But if and when he dies, she is free to marry another.

As long as the Mosaic covenant was in effect, all circumcised Jews were bound to it. But once it was annulled/replaced with a better covenant, that is, it died a la the husband in the analogy, all Jews, and even Gentiles, are free to enter marriage, as it were, with Jesus.

[votivesoul]

2.) Instead of analogizing law, grace, works, and all that those things entail by envisioning a courtroom, I submit we should think of it like this:

As a family, with children who disobey, but with parents who forgive.

As a father, I can testify to the world that my children frequently disobey. They test my patience. They are sometimes mean to one another. They talk back. They throw temper tantrums. They sometimes lie.

And the list goes on.

As the parent, along with my wife, we have a responsibility to discipline and correct improper behavior. We sometimes even need to not just discipline and correct, but to punish, as well.

And yet, here is the key: Our children will always, ALWAYS, have our unconditional love. Our grace toward them will always, ALWAYS be free. They will never have to earn or merit our approval, before we will love and forgive them anything.

But a requirement still exists: they must obey us. Taking care of their dishes, picking up their room, getting ready for bed, not fighting with each other, and etc.

All of those things and more are required of them by us. In this pattern, I stand in for the Lord, and my wife stands in for the Church.

Our children then, are like the saints. They are already a part of our lives, and will always continue to be so. They have been born into it. It is doubtful they will ever so heinously reject us and our authority over them, and so, find themselves removed from our love and grace. But it could happen.

It really could.

And if they maintain such a posture, they automatically lose out on all that we as mom and dad do and give for them. Our love for them doesn't dim, but it isn't felt, either. Our grace and forgiveness for them never changes, but they don't experience it as a reality.

So it is with us and God. It's not that our works save us any more than when one of my children obeys, it then qualifies them to stay as a member of our family.

Nor is it possible for one of my children to ever stop being my child. So, too, with the adopted child, the grafted in son or daughter of God. God will always be their father, the church will always be their mother.

But if and when the Father and Mother are rejected (note here that apostasy, a calque from Koine Greek literally means to stand off/away from), nothing the Father or Mother can do can change the fact that all the love and grace and forgiveness in the Father's heart doesn't do anything for the wayward son or daughter. As long as the son or daughter continues in sin, they automatically are found guilty of rejecting the love, grace, and forgiveness of God.

And in the end, that will be what condemns that son or daughter of God. See what James said:

13. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14. But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

When lust has conceived, that is, when a person has given themselves over to rejecting the love, grace, and forgiveness of God, it brings forth, or, that is, gives the law of sin in a person's members the desire and capacity to transgress. Left in such a state, that person will die, i.e. experience separation from the source of all life, i.e. God.

So then, it wasn't the sin, per se, that condemned the wayward son or daughter, it was that they walked away from God and allowed a lust to do wrong consume them until they caved in and obeyed the law of sin in their members.

Sinful actions are merely the result of a person already under condemnation. The condemnation isn't for the sins, but rather, because of the sins.

It's a distinct difference, and not easily discerned, but it's there, and it's important, I think, to make note of it.

[votivesoul]

Jesus said it this way:

"And this is the condemnation, that men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

See how a person loves darkness, or sinful living? It's because their deeds are evil. So the condemnation comes to them not for, but rather, because of, their evil deeds.

When a person doesn't love darkness, but rather, decides to come to the light, it shows that their deeds are not evil, but rather, are wrought in God.

Such deeds don't earn the person a chance to dwell in the light. Rather, the light shines on them and gives them a chance to break free from the darkness. Once loosed, the person then enters the light and begins to live a life full of light. All that they do from that point forward, as long as they continue to dwell in the light, are wrought in God.

"In" here, means inside of, or in the realm of, the sphere of God Himself. This means the person who has come to the light, and who has remained in the light, has begun, through and with the help of God, Who is Light, to do those deeds which are good.

Nothing then about earning one's salvation through good deeds. But rather, because the person came to love light instead of darkness.

We see therefore that both salvation and condemnation are merely a matter of love, or lack of love, for either light or darkness.

- Salvation = love of light

- Condemnation = love of darkness

Works merely proceed from the love of one or the other.

[shazeep]

well said VS

[mfblume]

Not sure what's been said, but my take on the issue is that works condemn because, while works do not save, they are fruit that indicates if we have the faith that saves or not. So, if a person lacks good works, they do not have the faith that generates those good works, but the faith is what actually saves.

So it's like saying, "I know you have not got a pizza in that box, because there's no aroma coming from it that smells like a pizza." The aroma is not what you want, it's the pizza. But the aroma has a scent and will ALWAYS be with what you actually want in the box.

It's like tongues being INITIAL evidence of the Spirit. The tongues are not what we seek nor the object of our lives, but the baptism of the Spirit is our target. But the tongues are evidence, and people get messed up when then they seek evidence more than they seek the Spirit.

[Esaias]

I'm hungry now.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I wonder what Canadian Pizza tastes like?

And NO Brother Blume, don't try to send me a slice shoved in an envelope through the mail.