Are all Catholics lost?

[mfblume]

The Catholic Catechism For Adults on page 52 says,

"Can you learn to save your soul just by reading the Bible? No, because certain things in the Bible can be misunderstood, and because the Bible does not have everything God taught."

The Faith of Millions, on pages 153-154:

"The Bible does not contain all the teaching of the Christian religion, nor does it formulate all the duties of its members."

The Catechism For Adults on page 10:

"How can you get the true meaning of the Bible? You can get it only from God's official interpreter, the Catholic Church."

The Catechism For Adults on page 56:

"Why can't the Catholic Church ever teach error? Because Jesus promised to be always with His Church to protect it from error."

The book, "My Catholic Faith" says on page 144:

"Jesus Christ promised to preserve the Church from error."

On page 145, it says,

"Jesus Christ commanded all men to listen to and obey the Church, under pain of damnation. If His Church can teach error then He is responsible for the error, by commanding all to obey."

On page 54 the Catechism For Adults:

"Does everyone have to obey the Catholic Church? Yes, because she alone has the authority of Jesus to rule and to teach."

James Cardinal Gibbons, a Catholic Archbishop said in "The Faith of Our Fathers", p. 82:

"Jesus our Lord, founded but one Church, which He was pleased to build on Peter. Therefore, any church that does not recognize Peter as its foundation stone is not the Church of Christ, and therefore cannot stand, for it is not the work of God."

"Answer Wisely," by Martin J. Scott says on p. 49:

"The pope, therefore, as vicar of Christ, is the visible head of Christ's kingdom on earth, the Church, of which Christ Himself is the invisible head."

The book Father Smith Instructs Jackson, by John F. Noll and Lester J. Fallon, on page 42 says:

"According to the will of Christ, all its members profess the same faith, have the same worship and Sacraments, and are united under the one and same visible head, the Pope."

Comments, Shazeep?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You don't even know what catholics believe, but you know who's saved and who's lost?

Who made you the arbiter of who is saved and who is lost, anyway?

i never said i knew anything, Esaias. I am fairly familiar with Catholic doctrine, which i mostly disagree with at several points, infant baptism, etc, but of course the verses i would quote are the ones that give--or should give--any arbiter pause in their condemnation. Yes, there are plenty of legalities to disagree over. "Righteousness" might be defined as doing those church-works that you hold sacred, i would not disagree. So, i have 99 to go.

10This is how God's children--and the Devil's children--are made evident. Whoever does not do what is right is not of God, especially the one who does not love his brother.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Shazeep: you only need about three verses, without contradiction,
to prove your claim. They are the scriptures that relate to the gospel
that saves!
You also need to differentiate between the souls of man, and all those
institutions that pretend to proclaim truth.

i think this is the point; Catholic doctrine is different from a Catholic person, who may have a pure heart regardless of doctrine.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The Catholic Catechism For Adults on page 52 says,

"Can you learn to save your soul just by reading the Bible? No, because certain things in the Bible can be misunderstood, and because the Bible does not have everything God taught."

The Faith of Millions, on pages 153-154:

"The Bible does not contain all the teaching of the Christian religion, nor does it formulate all the duties of its members."

The Catechism For Adults on page 10:

"How can you get the true meaning of the Bible? You can get it only from God's official interpreter, the Catholic Church."

The Catechism For Adults on page 56:

"Why can't the Catholic Church ever teach error? Because Jesus promised to be always with His Church to protect it from error."

The book, "My Catholic Faith" says on page 144:

"Jesus Christ promised to preserve the Church from error."

On page 145, it says,

"Jesus Christ commanded all men to listen to and obey the Church, under pain of damnation. If His Church can teach error then He is responsible for the error, by commanding all to obey."

On page 54 the Catechism For Adults:

"Does everyone have to obey the Catholic Church? Yes, because she alone has the authority of Jesus to rule and to teach."

James Cardinal Gibbons, a Catholic Archbishop said in "The Faith of Our Fathers", p. 82:

"Jesus our Lord, founded but one Church, which He was pleased to build on Peter. Therefore, any church that does not recognize Peter as its foundation stone is not the Church of Christ, and therefore cannot stand, for it is not the work of God."

"Answer Wisely," by Martin J. Scott says on p. 49:

"The pope, therefore, as vicar of Christ, is the visible head of Christ's kingdom on earth, the Church, of which Christ Himself is the invisible head."

The book Father Smith Instructs Jackson, by John F. Noll and Lester J. Fallon, on page 42 says:

"According to the will of Christ, all its members profess the same faith, have the same worship and Sacraments, and are united under the one and same visible head, the Pope."

Comments, Shazeep?

you are presenting valid objections to Catholic doctrine, but not justifications for condemning an individual who identifies as Catholic imo.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

you are presenting valid objections to Catholic doctrine, but not justifications for condemning an individual who identifies as Catholic imo.

If people believe those doctrinal truths, that makes them catholics. They would not be catholics if they did not believe those doctrinal statements. So, the doctrine is what makes the person a a catholic. So, if you believe those doctrinal statements are valid arguments against catholicism, then what does that say about people who believe those statements?

Put it this way:

Do you believe that people who hold those beliefs stated in those doctrines are saved?

You see, this is what you have been missing all along in my arguments. It's not PEOPLE that are the issue. It is DOCTRINE. BELIEF. And those who hold BELIEFS contrary to the word are in violation of salvation. You don't agree? You keep trying to make it about people, but the whole reason anyone is lost is not because of their person, but because of their BELIEF that violates the Word. That's the reason I have been saying it's not a sect, but rather what the bible says and whether or not we agree with the bible. the bible makes statements that directly contradict the doctrines I listed. So how can a person be saved if they believe a doctrine the bible contradicts?

[shazeep]

but this does not allow for a believer who attends the church that feels most comfortable to them, or maybe even the church of most convenience if they dont drive, or many other scenarios one might envision wherein one is attending a church while not necessarily agreeing with every doctrine of that church.

But to answer your question, about what to say about those who believe those statements, my answer would be to say nothing. People change their minds, and these might be just something that God is not dealing with them on yet. Or whatever. There is no scenario in which you might justifiably proclaim anyone lost or saved, as no one has held out to the end yet that is still living, and your countenance should not be varying between those you consider chosen and those you consider lost anyway--you are supposed to be reflecting love to people, and demonstrating your beliefs, but instead you make a mockery of them by denigrating other sinners, and calling them lost when you do not know, because you think you have some Scripture to point to.

hasn't the gay thing coming to your church penetrated yet? You might like to characterize that as satan running rampant, but i suspect it is God's judgement for an unsaintly attitude. I see that you are back to pointing out what i am missing up there again, so i am done here. Doctrines are mostly yack lawyers invent to talk about Christ because they have no clue how to reflect Him imo.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

but this does not allow for a believer who attends the church that feels most comfortable to them,

Who said we should find a church comfortable for us? We are not meant to choose what feels good to us, but a church that preaches what the bible teaches. It's not a feel-good issue when it concerns salvation. We don't find a church that adapts itself to our feelings, but a church that adapts itself to what the bible teaches.

or maybe even the church of most convenience if they dont drive,

When there are limitations as to were we can go for church, the [point is not so much the church, but is what we personally believe. I've recommended people go to churches that were available to them when those churches did not have what we consider full truth. So, the point is, it's what we believe in our hearts that God sees. Not the label over the door.

And you're specifically asking about Catholics, hence Catholic churches. If a person agrees with catholic doctrine, then, and then only, are they actually catholic people. If for some odd reason they attend a catholic church, but do not believe the doctrines the catholic church stands for, then the person is not catholic whether they attend a catholic church or not.

or many other scenarios one might envision wherein one is attending a church while not necessarily agreeing with every doctrine of that church.

Again, it is agreement with the doctrine of the catholic church that makes one a catholic. If a person does not agree with the doctrine, then the person is not catholic.

But to answer your question, about what to say about those who believe those statements, my answer would be to say nothing. People change their minds, and these might be just something that God is not dealing with them on yet.

That was not part of the question. Anyone can change their mind at any given moment. but for the moment while they believe those doctrines, are they saved should they drop dead at that second? An atheist is lost at this moment in time he is an atheist. He can be saved LATER if he changes and has faith. But the whole point I am referring to is the moment when a person believes something for the time being, whether or not they change later in time.

Are you thinking we may now and forever, when we say a souls is lost? That's not what I've been saying at all. I am talking about for the moment in time right now. It's a given no one is doomed without any choice to LATER be saved if they are not save at this moment in time. It seems that's not a given to you in these discussions. So, please keep that in mind.

So, if a person dropped dead while believing those doctrines, are they bound for glory? Any time I deal with who is lost or who is saved that is the point I am making.

Or whatever. There is no scenario in which you might justifiably proclaim anyone lost or saved, as no one has held out to the end yet that is still living,

In THAT SENSE I AGREE. But that is not what I have been saying when speaking of who is lost or saved. And I already quoted Paul saying that certain people were SAVED while in this life in that moment in time and space.

and your countenance should not be varying between those you consider chosen and those you consider lost anyway--you are supposed to be reflecting love to people, and demonstrating your beliefs, but instead you make a mockery of them by denigrating other sinners, and calling them lost when you do not know, because you think you have some Scripture to point to.

This is a chat forum and is not everyday life and does not reflect what goes on in everyday life as a believer. This is a forum where details are often discussed that have little activity in everyday life. Even the things I preach in our church are not what I discuss here on this forum, because they're two very severely different venues and places in life. Do you get up and everyday of your life ask people if Catholics are all lost or saved?

I am mocking nobody because PEOPLE are not my objective when discussing doctrine. You keep making it about people and persons, even myself. But I am being objective and simply discussing this issue you raised.

hasn't the gay thing coming to your church penetrated yet? You might like to characterize that as satan running rampant, but i suspect it is God's judgement for an unsaintly attitude. I see that you are back to pointing out what i am missing up there again, so i am done here. Doctrines are mostly yack lawyers invent to talk about Christ because they have no clue how to reflect Him imo.

See? Talk bible and actual details and you run and hide. You brought the issue up here and started this thread. Why do you always run and hide when objective issues are discussed. Why do you like talking about persons and people all the time? It's not about people. It's about beliefs.

[Ferd]

any catholic who has repented of their sins, been baptized in Jesus name and received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues is saved.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Ferd

any catholic who has repented of their sins, been baptized in Jesus name and received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues is saved.

Right. But then they're not catholic.

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Right. But then they're not catholic.

LOL