Elephant in the room - accusation of judging - Page 31

shazeep · #**301** 07-11-2016, 05:56 PM

well, after subtracting all of the rhetoric, you have stated both that All Catholics are lost, and that it is not a matter of what sect, but the heart. How is anyone supposed to interpret this? Please take this as a rhetorical question, for consideration, for some future self.

mfblume · #**302** 07-11-2016, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, after subtracting all of the rhetoric, you have stated both that All Catholics are lost, and that it is not a matter of what sect, but the heart. How is anyone supposed to interpret this? Please take this as a rhetorical question, for consideration, for some future self.

It's simple. If you followed my explanations. Catholic doctrine is admittedly a concern to you. And though you try to separate its adherents from that doctrine, making catholics somehow different from those who believe catholic dogma you admit is a concern, you put a BUT in there. You said What about those who have no other churches to attend; implying actual non-catholics attending a catholic church. I gave my response. You never responded.

I made a statement that catholic dogma does not teach us to rely solely on the work of the cross for righteousness. I showed where the bible teaches we have to. I showed ho catholic dogma baptizes infants who have no faith, and showed how the bible teaches we must believe when we're baptized. You said something about saying the right words, and I responded with Peter's explanation that it's not saying the name, but it is faith in His name that makes the difference when we say it. The seven sons of Sceva said the name, and devils went no where. It's a matter of faith.

And when I said catholics are lost it was because a catholic is a catholic only because the person believes infants don't need faith for baptism, and a person who believes the very dogmas you said you're concerned about. So, this means it's not about people that you want it to be about. It's actually about DOCTRINE. You cannot accept that. I suspect it is because you simply don't want to think that way. A person is not lost because they classify themselves as catholic. A person is lost because of what it means to be a catholic.... someone who believes in things the bible distinctly speaks against, like the muslim who believes the Koran's words that say JESUS WAS NOT CRUCIFIED.

I gave no rhetoric. I just made the actual point in the difference and you fail to respond to that singular point. I highlighted the actual issue. You won't touch it since it exposes that I am not in the pigeonhole you wish I was in.

Now, try to make it about people again.

shazeep · #**303** 07-11-2016, 06:46 PM

pardon me if i don't waste any space on sympathy, as it is you who plainly stated that all Catholics were lost.
So then are all Catholics still lost in your opinion, or not? Can anyone tell?

shazeep · #**304** 07-11-2016, 07:58 PM

29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

8Your message is to be sound beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be ashamed, having nothing bad to say about us.

Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.

22Therefore, consider God's kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God's kindness toward you--if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

32For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.

shazeep · #**305** 07-11-2016, 08:00 PM

1Therefore, any one of youa, b who judges is without excuse.c For when you judge another,d you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the same things. 2We know that God’s judgment on those who do such things is based on the truth. 3Do you really think — anyone of you who judges those who do such things yet do the same — that you will escape God’s judgment? 4Or do you despise the riches of His kindness,e restraint,f and patience,g not recognizingh that God’s kindnessi is intended to lead you to repentance? 5But because of your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrathj for yourself in the day of wrath,k when God’s righteous judgment is revealed. 6He will repay each one according to his works:l, m 7eternal lifen to those who by persistence in doing goodo seek glory, honor,p and immortality;q 8but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seekingr and disobey the truth but are obeying unrighteousness; 9affliction and distresst for every human being who does evil, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek;u 10but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does what is good, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek. 11There is no favoritism with God.v

shazeep · #**306** 07-11-2016, 08:03 PM

12All those who sinned without the laww will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For the hearers of the lawx are not righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.y 14So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctivelyz do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the lawaa is written on their hearts.ab Their consciences confirm this. Their competing thoughts will either accuse or excuse themac 16on the day when God judgesad what people have kept secret, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus.

this one explains how a Muslim might be saved, while the rest hint at the temperature where you will likely be spending eternity, "elder."

Evang.Benincasa · #**307** 07-11-2016, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

12All those who sinned without the laww will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For the hearers of the lawx are not righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.y 14So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctivelyz do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the lawaa is written on their hearts.ab Their consciences confirm this. Their competing thoughts will either accuse or excuse themac 16on the day when God judgesad what people have kept secret, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus.

this one explains how a Muslim might be saved, while the rest hint at the temperature where you will likely be spending eternity, "elder."

How in the name of logic does Romans 2:12-16 indicate that a Muslim is saved?

mfblume · #**308** 07-11-2016, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

pardon me if i don't waste any space on sympathy, as it is you who plainly stated that all Catholics were lost.
So then are all Catholics still lost in your opinion, or not? Can anyone tell?

You do not even read what I write, do you? lol

Ironic, since you certainly read one sentence months ago, but ignored context.

mfblume · #**309** 07-11-2016, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

12All those who sinned without the laww will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For the hearers of the lawx are not righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.y 14So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctivelyz do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the lawaa is written on their hearts.ab Their consciences confirm this. Their competing thoughts will either accuse or excuse themac 16on the day when God judgesad what people have kept secret, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus.

this one explains how a Muslim might be saved, while the rest hint at the temperature where you will likely be spending eternity, "elder."

How does it explain that? I can quote scripture, too, and throw it in the middle of a discussion, without explanation, such as:

2 Chronicles 12:4 KJV And he took the fenced cities which pertained to Judah, and came to Jerusalem.

And claim it proves my point.

Oh right. Get into explanation of context and application, and people tend to bolt.

mfblume · #**310** 07-11-2016, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

1Therefore, any one of youa, b who judges is without excuse.c For when you judge another,d you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the same things. 2We know that God’s judgment on those who do such things is based on the truth. 3Do you really think — anyone of you who judges those who do such things yet do the same — that you will escape God’s judgment? 4Or do you despise the riches of His kindness,e restraint,f and patience,g not recognizingh that God’s kindnessi is intended to lead you to repentance? 5But because of your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrathj for yourself in the day of wrath,k when God’s righteous judgment is revealed. 6He will repay each one according to his works:l, m 7eternal lifen to those who by persistence in doing goodo seek glory, honor,p and immortality;q 8but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seekingr and disobey the truth but are obeying unrighteousness; 9affliction and distresst for every human being who does evil, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek;u 10but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does what is good, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek. 11There is no favoritism with God.v

And...? Again never discussion on the context and its application.