Those who never heard about Jesus?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It may take days to get the video up though. Will try Monday.

Awesome, looking forward to hearing it.

[houston]

something about casting pearls before swine...

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That would be salvation by works, though. Christ never needed to come if that is the case.

I don't think that's the case. Remember the original question. What about all the souls who never had a chance to hear about Jesus?

In light of the reality that there has been many millions of people since 33AD who never heard of Jesus, they have no object of faith present before them that can save them apart from how they lived in their life according to their God given conscience.

Yes, Psalm 19:1 and Romans 1:20 have their part, but those facts don't indicate "I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob", or "By my name YHWH I was not known to them", or even "This is my beloved Son".

That being the case, even if some far off, ancient tribe of people came to believe in some kind of creator god, that belief could not have been contextualized into a belief in God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

How shall they believe on Him in who they have not heard? Paul's rhetorical question is answered thusly: It's IMPOSSIBLE!

Hence, the preacher, and oh, how beautiful the feet!

So, these multitudes, having no ability at all to ever believe on Jesus, having no ability whatsoever to know the God of the fathers personally through covenant, because God didn't offer one to them, who could only get a mere glimpse of Him through the wonders of creation, have only their conscience going for them, when they are judged.

And their conscience, either accusing or excusing them, was the primary way in which the way they lived came about, and was the determining force in what they did or didn't do, from day to day.

Since sin is the trangression of the law, and the Law was given at Sinai, all other binding commandments of God long since forgotten after God confused the languages and scattered the people at the Tower of Babel, for anyone in such a setting to know any of the basic commands of God apart from their conscience is just as impossible as believing on Him in whom they never heard.

God therefore, being a merciful, JUST God, who sent His Son as the propitiation for the sins of the world, not just ours, that is, the sins of the church, but for the whole world, God then becomes favorably disposed to forgive (the very meaning of propipiated), and the blood of Jesus then, acts as the expiatory atonement. By being the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the whole world, the grace of God can, according to God's good pleasure, therefore cover anyone who never heard of Jesus, and never got a chance to have faith in Him.

This narrows the gap down to one thing by which God can justly judge them: their deeds. Their deeds reveal their conscience, whether or not they ever felt pricked in their heart for any misdeeds, if ever they offered apology or forgiveness, or restitution, or etc. Did they love, or where they cruel and full of spite?

The list could keep going and going.

Therefore, without Christ as the object of faith, while at the same time Christ being the atonement and propitiation, and as you said "Father, forgive them..." potentially covering anything else as required, you have a situation in which God can be "justified when He judges", by not requiring an eternal penalty for something someone had no ability to ever do, which is: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is why I think the Great White Throne of Judgment in Revelation 20 occurs. It ties all the loose strings of all the dead, of all those who never heard of Jesus, or had a chance to ever really know and be saved by God.

These folks are a "law unto themselves", and so, have a completely different set of criteria awaiting them by which they will be judged.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I don't think that's the case. Remember the original question. What about all the souls who never had a chance to hear about Jesus?

In light of the reality that there has been many millions of people since 33AD who never heard of Jesus, they have no object of faith present before them that can save them apart from how they lived in their life according to their God given conscience.

Yes, Psalm 19:1 and Romans 1:20 have their part, but those facts don't indicate "I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob", or "By my name YHWH I was not known to them", or even "This is my beloved Son".

That being the case, even if some far off, ancient tribe of people came to believe in some kind of creator god, that belief could not have been contextualized into a belief in God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

How shall they believe on Him in who they have not heard? Paul's rhetorical question is answered thusly: It's IMPOSSIBLE!

Hence, the preacher, and oh, how beautiful the feet!

So, these multitudes, having no ability at all to ever believe on Jesus, having no ability whatsoever to know the God of the fathers personally through covenant, because God didn't offer one to them, who could only get a mere glimpse of Him through the wonders of creation, have only their conscience going for them, when they are judged.

And their conscience, either accusing or excusing them, was the primary way in which the way they lived came about, and was the determining force in what they did or didn't do, from day to day.

Since sin is the trangression of the law, and the Law was given at Sinai, all other binding commandments of God long since forgotten after God confused the languages and scattered the people at the Tower of Babel, for anyone in such a setting to know any of the basic commands of God apart from their conscience is just as impossible as believing on Him in whom they never heard.

God therefore, being a merciful, JUST God, who sent His Son as the propitiation for the sins of the world, not just ours, that is, the sins of the church, but for the whole world, God then becomes favorably disposed to forgive (the very meaning of propipiated), and the blood of Jesus then, acts as the expiatory atonement. By being the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the whole world, the grace of God can, according to God's good pleasure, therefore cover anyone who never heard of Jesus, and never got a chance to have faith in Him.

This narrows the gap down to one thing by which God can justly judge them: their deeds. Their deeds reveal their conscience, whether or not they ever felt pricked in their heart for any misdeeds, if ever they offered apology or forgiveness, or restitution, or etc. Did they love, or where they cruel and full of spite?

The list could keep going and going.

Therefore, without Christ as the object of faith, while at the same time Christ being the atonement and propitiation, and as you said "Father, forgive them..." potentially covering anything else as required, you have a situation in which God can be "justified when He judges", by not requiring an eternal penalty for something someone had no ability to ever do, which is: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is why I think the Great White Throne of Judgment in Revelation 20 occurs. It ties all the loose strings of all the dead, of all those who never heard of Jesus, or had a chance to ever really know and be saved by God.

These folks are a "law unto themselves", and so, have a completely different set of criteria awaiting them by which they will be judged.

Think of it like this:

I imagine the vast majority of us don't believe God consigns children who die to eternal death, do we?

We believe that God's grace covers them, and that, because they were unable to believe, and had no ability to repent, being too young, God doesn't require satisfaction in terms of the Gospel when it comes to children who die young.

What's the difference between a child who can't believe or repent, and dies before ever getting the chance, and an adult who can't believe or repent, because "How can they believe on Him in whom they have not heard?"?

The only kind of believing they might do is generally according to the customs and traditions of their people, and the only repenting they might do is generally based on the morals and ethics given to them by their forebearers.

In this way, the "never heard of Jesus" crowd, while under a different set of circumstances, can just as easily be considered innocent as it pertains to the Gospel, as any child who dies young.

Why was Paul given mercy from God? Because the things he did, he did IGNORANTLY IN UNBELIEF. But God sovereignly chose a time and a place to reveal His Son in Paul, and appoint Him as an apostle, all because of the Road to Damascus experience.

But should God not do the same for anyone in the world, is there then no mercy even though the things they do, or have done, they do, or did, ignorantly in unbelief?

This then isn't salvation by works.

This is mercy by grace, that God, knowing He didn't make a way for some far off, distant tribe to ever know about Him or His Son, therefore, doesn't hold such people accountable for things it was His responsibility to make known.

God is known only through revelation. But what say the Scriptures? It says that GOD SAID He would dwell in thick darkness, which is merely a poetic way of saying God doesn't make Himself easily known, i.e. He doesn't go off revealing Himself frivolously. There is purpose and destiny behind every act and revelation of God.

For God to not do a single thing to make Himself or His Son known, is on God, not on men.

Now, I'm not assigning blame as though God has done some great evil in not revealing Himself to ancient, far off tribes. Rather, I am upholding the righteousness of God that allows God to be justified when He judges, meaning the criteria by which He judges is just, fair, and equitable.

And for these folks, the criteria isn't faith in a Savior they never knew existed.

[votivesoul]

Allow me to put a scenario out there, one that surely happened in some real way, in real life, circa 33AD.

Passover and Pentecost are and were Jewish festivals given to Israel by God according to the laws of the covenant, and were binding upon all males old enough to go. Women were exempt, but could go if they chose.

Imagine some very aged man, too fragile to make the trip to Jerusalem for Passover and Pentecost, and so, doesn't go. He's heard some rumblings about some new prophet and miracle worker, but his hearing isn't what it's used to be, and he isn't quite sure what he did or didn't hear anyone say. He's also illiterate, and has never read the Holy Scriptures for himself. He's learned much by heart, through oral tradition, as it pertains to the Fathers, and Moses and David, and the Prophets, and etc. but otherwise, the vast amount of actual Bible remains unlearned to him.

Passover happens, and Jesus is arrested and crucified. He is buried, then resurrects on the Third Day. Most of the people in Jerusalem don't know He resurrected, as He only made Himself known to a select group of people, just slightly over 500 in number over the course of 40 days.

He ascends to heaven. The disciples shut themselves in the upper room and await the promise of the Father. The Holy Spirit descends on Pentecost, and for the first time, all Jerusalem is put on notice that they killed their Lord and Christ, but God raised Him from the dead. The relatively secret resurrection that took place 50 days prior is no longer a secret. Simon Peter breaks the news. The events of Acts unfold in due course.

The very aged man, too weak and frail to make the festivals, too deaf to really hear anything about Jesus over the past 3.5 years, and too illiterate to know enough Bible to realize for himself when the Messiah should come, dies a couple days after Pentecost.

The Gospel hasn't gotten out of Jerusalem yet. The New Covenant has begun. The will of the testator has gone into effect. Acts 2:38 for life!

Does the old man go to hell for not believing on Jesus and not being baptized in the name of Jesus and not receiving the Holy Spirit and not speaking with other tongues?

I don't know the answer.

But do you? Who but God knows?

So then, if anything like the above scenario really took place, what about the old man in India that died the same day as the old man in Israel? Or the people that died somewhere in Africa on the same day? Or any of the ancestors of the Olmecs in Meso-America? Or folks in China?

Or even Gentiles in Antioch, for that matter.

See, we have it easy. We have 1,980+ years and a fully written and collated Bible, and a modern education, and centuries and centuries of some form of a Christian witness to draw on, even if corrupted, even if badly so, plus a massive outpouring of the Holy Spirit just over 100 years ago, that radically changed Christianity forever. So for us, it's easy to point to Acts 2:38 and say Obey or Burn!

But never do we realize that the transitional period from Old to New Covenants and from Pentecost and Jerusalem to the "uttermost parts of the earth" took a very long time. A very long time, and until that occurred, how can we say that God is going to destroy people in hellfire just because they were caught in between the period of transition?

It's not their fault! Their only fault will be in their deeds. If they have done wickedly, they're done for, eternally speaking, as Revelation 20 shows.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by mfblume

In short, EVERY other way aside from the cross is salvation by works. EVERY OTHER WAY. And salvation by works is plainly refuted in many instances in the bible.

Fulfilling the golden rule for salvation is SALVATION BY WORKS.

Living like the Good Samaritan without the cross for salvation is SALVATION BY WORKS.

Forgiving people of their wrongs to us, without the cross, is SALVATION BY WORKS.

No matter which way you slice it, any means to heaven WITHOUT THE CROSS is SALVATION BY WORKS.

This is the best summation I can give from my study. I can only speak for myself.

Matthew 25:31-46,

31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36. Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38. When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39. Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40. And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43. I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45. Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Salvation by works?

Who are the righteous here who get to go into life eternal, but the sheep mentioned above, separated onto the Son of Man's right hand, who by works of love, kindness, and condescension to the least of Christ's brethren, inherit the kingdom prepared for them since the foundation of the world?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Do you have an English translation for the above?

my apologies if you do not get that, i've reread it and can't find where it is unclear, maybe i'm speaking in tongues now or something? Which state do you imagine we are in, the one where i cannot exegete "judge yourselves, don't judge others" or the one where i cannot demonstrate that it is happening here?

[shazeep]

prolly you were just taking advantage of an opportunity to make a joke tho, in which case ya lol hilarious.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Matthew 25:31-46,



Salvation by works?

Who are the righteous here who get to go into life eternal, but the sheep mentioned above, separated onto the Son of Man's right hand, who by works of love, kindness, and condescension to the least of Christ's brethren, inherit the kingdom prepared for them since the foundation of the world?

The context is not the final judgment, I believe. This falls in line with Matthew 24 and the context of Christ's coming in local judgment against Jerusalem in AD70. It is an allusion to the time Moses told Israel when they enter Canaan to gather all Israel and set them in two groups on either side of the ark of the covenant, on Mount Gerizim and Mount Ebal. Curses were read from Mount Ebal and blessings from Mount Gerizim. Deut 27. Josh 8:30.

It's about entering the land to be blessed in there and maintain the land and not be removed into Babylon like what actually happened later.

God pronounced curses to all those who disobeyed His law, like the goats on the left, and blessings on those who would obey law - like sheep on right. Joshua did this after entering Canaan.

It's like the two thieves on either side of Jesus.

Jesus stood for the ark, and shows that in Matt 25. It's talking about inheriting the kingdom just like Israel inherited the promised land. It's not heaven. The kingdom speaks of God's will in this world being done and His kingdom coming to this world just like the Lord's prayer noted.

Forty years after Israel left Egypt they entered. 40 years after the cross judgment came to Jerusalem for their p[art in the cross, in cursing wrath.



Entering into heaven is not going to be based upon our works, for that is salvation by works. Our works only prove our faith, and that faith is the element that saves and is focused on the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Again, the works in Rev 20 are proofs for those not saved by the blood as to why they're not saved. No one will be saved by any amount of good works aside from the cross.

Otherwise, you all have a doctrine that conflicts with plain statements in the New Testament about salvation not being of works but grace through faith.

It's a picture of Jerusalem missing the blessing. It's like 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

May God have mercy on you.

He's here to "judge and condemn us", all while complaining that we're judging and condemning others, which is actually false. Recognizing that others are lost, and pointing it out to them, is not the same as judging or condemning them.

Think of it as a situation where a person is committing a crime (intentionally or not). We're pointing out that what they're doing is a crime. We're not the police, the judge, the jury or executioner, but we know the law well enough to recognize that what they're doing is wrong, and pointing it out them so they can mend their ways before they are judged.