You not preaching holiness till you've named it!

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Gold is an element, created by God. Jewels are stones, created by God. In Genesis, all that God created was and is good.

These things, by their nature, are not evil or wicked. Their use of them, however, as it pertains to us, can become evil or wicked, as our fallen state, and the law of sin, so easily corrupts us and causes us to justify any number of things.

Ever hear the stoner say "But God made the herb, man!"

Does this mean using marijuana is okay because God made it?

Gold and jewels have to be addressed in a similar fashion. Just because God made them doesn't mean they get an automatic pass.

Ever visit a diamond mine in Africa? I wonder how many Spirit-filled believers would be comfortable wearing diamonds in their jewelry if they had spent a day digging for their diamonds under those conditions?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

No crosses or tattoos of any kind are mentioned here.

You are not even grasping at straws but are creating your own straws.

A mark on the forehead is symbolically given. This lines up with the mark given in Ezekiel's vision to the saints. So, a marking is made upon the forehead (per Ezekiel with ink). According to your logic, we can do this literally today.

No straw needed, you made your own hay. I just baled it for ya.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Ever visit a diamond mine in Africa? I wonder how many Spirit-filled believers would be comfortable wearing diamonds in their jewelry if they had spent a day digging for their diamonds under those conditions?

Diamonds are one of the biggest scams in modern history. Makes me mad, too, cause it drives up the price of certain drill bits and cutters.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I present holiness first as a state of being imparted by God.

Holiness is not something you primarily do, it is something you primarily are, as God imparts it.

If God has given it, it cannot be taken away, except by Him.

Holiness begins and ends with the Holy Spirit. Those who have received the Spirit, and are walking in It, and are sowing to It, have had holiness imparted to them as a state of being.

Now, wherever they might be in that walking and sowing, might not be the same place as someone who has walked and sowed longer, but they aren't any less holy.

I've seen many newly born babes in Christ speaking in tongues as the water from their immersion, coupled with their tears, washes their eyeliner and mascara down their face.

They are holy to God, by impartation of the Holy Spirit. If they put that same makeup on the next day, they aren't any less holy unto God. But as they walk in the Spirit, and sow to the Spirit, as God brings conviction, as long as they are obeying what He puts in front of them to obey, each step of the way, they are walking in holiness.

Holiness then is about speech. God takes the tongue and submits it to His fire, and tames it. The heart that has been touched by the Holy Spirit will speak differently when it utters itself to the world.

So, I see holiness, first as an imparted status of being before God, and second, as a condition of the heart that manifests in how a person speaks. After that, the status and condition will lead to changes in regards to how they treat others. After how they begin to treat others changes the way God wants, holiness takes a deeper look inward, to make certain that nothing they say or do offends in any way.

This is where modesty, in my opinion, comes to play.

Modesty, I believe and teach, is only about other people. I can sing in tongues in the shower all I want and God doesn't care one bit. But when I am in public, modesty is the only appropriate response, to God, to my wife and family, and then to others, so that I am protected, while at the same time protecting the consciences of others.

I don't pretend to be some immaculate, handsome man. But neither I or my wife need any woman lusting after me for any reason. And so, I adorn myself in such a way as to not attract attention. My modesty is about making certain that no woman is inadvertently led to lust by how I appear.

As such, I feel it is the same with every believer. Their appearance is not about them. It's about not casting a stumbling-block before others.

This is good.

Do you see a difference between holiness as an authoritative declaration by God, and holiness as an experiential reality in the believer's life? If so, how would you explain it?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Do you see a difference between holiness as an authoritative declaration by God, and holiness as an experiential reality in the believer's life? If so, how would you explain it?

Question is open to anyone.

Except Shazeep.

And maybe that forehead tattooed incense burning funny robe wearing guy.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Esaias

This is good.

Do you see a difference between holiness as an authoritative declaration by God, and holiness as an experiential reality in the believer's life? If so, how would you explain it?

No difference. I think the "authoritative declaration" by God is concurrent to the "experiential reality", that is, when and as God declares it, is when the believer is personally experiencing it.

That starts at receiving the Holy Spirit and remission of sins. As God declares the former sinner righteous, and sanctifies them by His Spirit and redemptively seals them, it is a de facto claim that God has now declared that person a "saint", i.e. a holy person.

From there, I think there are benchmarks in the Spirit that a person reaches; they walk in intimacy and faithfulness with the Lord, in which they are taken into deeper revelation and insight into the mysteries of the Kingdom of God. As those times are experienced, God is likewise making authoritative declarations about the person.

I think here is a stage in which a person "hears" from God and God gives them their unique calling in life. He speaks the calling at the same time a person has developed under His care, growing in holiness.

The last stage is the "well done, thou faithful servant". As God declares, the saint enters glory, and is sanctified for eternity.

[allstate1]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I present holiness first as a state of being imparted by God.

Holiness is not something you primarily do, it is something you primarily are, as God imparts it.

If God has given it, it cannot be taken away, except by Him.

Holiness begins and ends with the Holy Spirit. Those who have received the Spirit, and are walking in It, and are sowing to It, have had holiness imparted to them as a state of being.

Now, wherever they might be in that walking and sowing, might not be the same place as someone who has walked and sowed longer, but they aren't any less holy.

I've seen many newly born babes in Christ speaking in tongues as the water from their immersion, coupled with their tears, washes their eyeliner and mascara down their face.

They are holy to God, by impartation of the Holy Spirit. If they put that same makeup on the next day, they aren't any less holy unto God. But as they walk in the Spirit, and sow to the Spirit, as God brings conviction, as long as they are obeying what He puts in front of them to obey, each step of the way, they are walking in holiness.

Holiness then is about speech. God takes the tongue and submits it to His fire, and tames it. The heart that has been touched by the Holy Spirit will speak differently when it utters itself to the world.

So, I see holiness, first as an imparted status of being before God, and second, as a condition of the heart that manifests in how a person speaks. After that, the status and condition will lead to changes in regards to how they treat others. After how they begin to treat others changes the way God wants, holiness takes a deeper look inward, to make certain that nothing they say or do offends in any way.

This is where modesty, in my opinion, comes to play.

Modesty, I believe and teach, is only about other people. I can sing in tongues in the shower all I want and God doesn't care one bit. But when I am in public, modesty is the only appropriate response, to God, to my wife and family, and then to others, so that I am protected, while at the same time protecting the consciences of others.

I don't pretend to be some immaculate, handsome man. But neither I or my wife need any woman lusting after me for any reason. And so, I adorn myself in such a way as to not attract attention. My modesty is about making certain that no woman is inadvertently led to lust by how I appear.

As such, I feel it is the same with every believer. Their appearance is not about them. It's about not casting a stumbling-block before others.

That next to last paragraph made me laugh out loud!!!

[Cracker Barrel]

Originally Posted by houston

Can't wear gold jewelry. Golden girdles are acceptable. Got it.

I depends,
On wheather you believe this portion of scripture to be a physical manifestation of Christ, or maybe, just maybe, could be a vision given to the apostle John, while in the spirit on the Lords day.
Lolo I say?!?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

This is good.

Do you see a difference between holiness as an authoritative declaration by God, and holiness as an experiential reality in the believer's life? If so, how would you explain it?

Herein lies the difference of being called and chosen. We are called unto holiness. God wants to us to be like Christ and surrender to his will. When I gave my heart to God it was a package deal. I get in trouble sometimes with my wife because I have used some of her kitchen utensils in the shop. For the convenience I recently used a whisk to stir a can of paint. Needless to say it got me in trouble. I didn't use it for its intended purpose and defiled it from its original use.

When we give our hearts to God our purpose is to serve and obey his will. Just as a wife is to submit herself and be subject to her husband, we are to God. When we are in good relationship to God we are holy. I also note that everything that belongs to me also belongs to my wife. She is supposed to be submitted to me, but also there is nothing that I possess that is not within her grasp. If we submit ourselves to holiness, then we shall also reign with God. As a bride in relation to her groom, nothing is deprived her.

Although, at the moment we are only in the betrothal period. A Jewish bride was almost the same as married at the moment of her betrothal. If a maiden was betrothed and she stepped out on her soon to be husband she was deemed not just a fornicator. She was an adulterer, and this would make her defiled and unholy. God is not coming back for a harlot, but instead for a church with out spot or wrinkle.

I understand that Christ died for our sins to be purged and that is how we obtain our purity, but after coming to God we are to no longer live in disobedience. I think there is a difference between mistakes and willfully and purposely sinning. God is faithful to forgive us of mistakes but he will not allow his bride to be unfaithful. A covenant relationship works to ways. must anxiously await the day that he should appear.

Long story short. We are holy because of who we are betrothed to, but we are to live holy also because of who we are betrothed to.

[shazeep]

nice

i think Saul makes a case for people willfully and purposely sinning by mistake, though. And though it is somewhat obscured, Paul is the testament of why, imo. He left a life of privilege and power to become a fugitive, basically.