Law was an impossible system to keep

[shazeep]

It is irresistable if we face it with natural life alone and not empowerment.


nice

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No. It was simply demanding Sinaitic law upon the church. No one could bear that. And we know it is Sinaitic law because Peter indicated "our fathers" were not able to bear it.

The Pharisees did not 'simply demand Sinaitic law upon the church.' I have already shown how the Pharisees did not view 'the law' as 'simply Sinaitic law' as you and I understand it.

Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.
(John 7:47-49 KJV)

The Pharisees claimed the people who were all amazed about Jesus' ministry did not know the law. There is no question that the Jews and Galileans knew the Sinaitic covenant, and the written commandments. So how is it they did 'not know the law'? Because according to the Pharisees, 'the law' was more than just that which was written in the Pentateuch. This was the basis of the entire division between the Sadducees and the Pharisees. It is the division that exists today between the Karaites and the Pharisees ('rabbinics', aka Orthodox Judaism). Pharisee Judaism maintains the 'law' is comprised of the written torah, the oral torah, the gemara (commentary), and the halachah and mitzvot imposed by the rabbis.

Jesus made this clear:

Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
(Matthew 15:1-9 KJV)

So when the Pharisees show up and demand someone 'keep the law', they are undeniably demanding that someone keep the Pharisee version. This is indisputable. When a Pharisee says 'the law', they mean the entirety of what is now called 'the talmud'. And this goes back several centuries before Christ. The Pharisees essentially dominated Judea. Even the Sadducees had to acquiesce in certain doctrinal points to the Pharisees (for example, the proper method of keeping Sukkot, the timing of the wave offering of the first of the firstfruits, the payment of tithes, the halachic requirements for the ritual slaughter of offerings and sacrifices, and many other issues). So when the Pharisees in the church demanded that gentiles be circumcised and 'keep the law of Moses' they could not have been thinking of anything BUT the scribal Pharisee version of 'the law'.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

This is where dispensationalism is similar to your view. You believe it does not have to be mentioned that Pharisaism was different from actual Mosaic Law in order for us to follow the context.

Dispensationalism has nothing to do with this issue. I am not a dispensationalist and I am not following their hermeneutic.

I never said 'it does not have to be mentioned that Pharisaism is different from actual Mosaic law in order for us to follow the context'. I already proved what the Pharisee mind-set was concerning what 'the law' is. Therefore, when a Pharisee says 'the law', or anything cognate to that expression (like 'according to Moses'), we must understand what 'the law' meant to such a person. This is basic grammatical-historical hermeneutics. We must understand the words used by the people who used them, in the way THEY understood them. And I demonstrated that using the Bible itself.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The commandments of God are an unbearable burden.

Rom 7:10....And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

The commandments of God are an unbearable burden.

Which ones? I disagree that the commandments of God are an unbearable burden.

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
(Psalms 19:1-14 KJV)


For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
(1 John 5:3 KJV)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The commandments of God are an unbearable burden.

Which ones? I disagree that the commandments of God are an unbearable burden.

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
(Psalms 19:1-14 KJV)


For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
(1 John 5:3 KJV)

The commandments John refers to are not the Old Testament commandments, bro. Again this is another assumption lawkeepers consistently make. Please explain why Paul said the law was ordained to life but he found it to be unto death.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Dispensationalism has nothing to do with this issue. I am not a dispensationalist and I am not following their hermeneutic.

I know you are not a dispensatioanlist, but the mannerism of saying something must be unhderstood that's not mentioned is the same mannerism.

I never said 'it does not have to be mentioned that Pharisaism is different from actual Mosaic law in order for us to follow the context'. I already proved what the Pharisee mind-set was concerning what 'the law' is.

But context does not say Peter had that in mind when he spoke.

Therefore, when a Pharisee says 'the law', or anything cognate to that expression (like 'according to Moses'), we must understand what 'the law' meant to such a person. This is basic grammatical-historical hermeneutics. We must understand the words used by the people who used them, in the way THEY understood them. And I demonstrated that using the Bible itself.

Peter did not mean that, though. Circumcision was demanded by Sinaitic law for gentiles. Simple as that.

Will deal with your previous post later.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Please explain why Paul said the law was ordained to life but he found it to be unto death.

boy, i thought he just did a pretty good job of explaining that!

[Aquila]

I believe that Christians living under grace are bound by a higher law than the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses. We are bound by the Law of Christ, also known as the "Law of Liberty", or the "Royal Law". What this means is that the born again Christian is bound by love. We are to live a Spirit led life of love. This love is embodied in a love for God and a love for others. This love is led of the Spirit and informed by Scripture. But we have no law other than this. Therefore, in all things: diet, dress, entertainment, lifestyle, drink, service, and general practice love is paramount. The question doesn't become, "Is there a law for or against this?". The question becomes, "Is this choice a loving choice? Does it exemplify true agape love?" This concept is drawn from the following texts, which we hold to be the defining texts on the matter. Here is what Jesus said:

Matthew 22:37-40
King James Version (KJV)
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Paul appears to hold the same position:

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

James illustrated that faith without works is dead. The very passage in which he writes this, James explains what he means by describing the works expected. These works are works of love and charity, not law:

James 2:14-17 King James Version (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James also states:

James 2:8
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

John tells us:

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

And we understand those commandments to be:

1.) Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.
2.) Demonstrate your love for God by loving others as yourself.

In obeying these two commandments we fulfill the spirit and intent of the entire Old Testament law.

[Aquila]

Really think about it.... someone who lives by the Ten Commandments might think that they are doing pretty good. However, the Ten Commandments are woefully incomplete. For nowhere in the Ten Commandments do we read that we are to visit the widows and/or the orphans in their affliction. Nor do the Ten Commandments command that we feed the hungry and care for the sick and needy. While the Ten Commandments are ethical, they would only keep you from being kicked out of church, arrested, divorced, or shot by a jealous spouse. Beyond that, they are really of little "moral" value. For love demands far more than Law. For example, if you saw a stranded motorist on the side of the road, nothing in the Ten Commandments commands you to stop and assist them. However, love would demand that you stop and seek how you might help, and to even give out of your own abundance to see to it that this motorist's immediate needs are met.

Love demands far more than law ever could or will.

[shazeep]

amen. of course a church turns this into "we have rules to follow, to find Grace" instead of "we are willing to suffer you for your sakes, demonstrating Grace."