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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer
The question is not does God ordain authority, we all know he does. But what that authority looks like is the question.
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The very act of authority was questioned in this thread, hence the last several pages. As I said before, the scope and nature of the authority is up for debate, but the existence of authority is not.
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Is the type of authority Apostolic or Roman Catholic. Yes the question was established in the 4th or 5th century, by Roman Catholic, and it was wrong.
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I was referring to the early medieval question about 'if a person is baptised by a heretic or someone in mortal sin is their baptism invalid?' And the answer that was given was 'no, it is not invalid, because the efficacy and efficiency of a divine command/sacrament is not dependent on the morality of the person performing the action, but on the divine authority of the action itself.'
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Ephesians 4 says God gave gifts of ministry for the equipping of the saints to do the work of ministry. Nowhere does it say the ministry gifts have the authority in the manner in which we have today in most churches.
The hierarchy in the church is given in Ephesians 5.
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
And if that is not good enough how about...
1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
As Paul said, be followers of him as he follows Christ. Note in both these cases, it does not say, Christ, minister, husband, wife.
As Ephesians states, the saints are to be equipped to do the work of ministry, which would include baptism.
Finally baptism is dependent on the faith of the being baptized not the baptizer. Rapist? How many were baptized by pedophiles, sexual deviants, adulterers etc. that came out years later. Men that held papers with organizations.
Baptism is the profession of ones faith, not the profession of the faith of the one doing the baptism. I should not matter who does the baptism so long as the one being baptized gets baptized and professes their faith.
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What do you think about this?
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
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1 Corinthians 12:27-28 KJV)
1. Why does he say 'first... secondarily... thirdly... after that...'? Do those terms imply any sort of hierarchy, and if so, of what kind? If not, why not?
2. What does he mean that God has set in the church 'governments'? Why is that listed as a gifting of certain members of the body? How does that gift operate?
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