The Myth Of Orthodoxy?

[Godsdrummer]

Aaron

I have had a thought on my mind too, over the course of the last few month that has perplexed me in must the same way as this. I think it may go along with what you have said.

In my youth everything was cut and dried so to speak. My doctrine and teaching came through mostly one man, and the organization I was part of. There came a turning point in my life that caused me to question the very tenants of my teachings, had I not had such a deep experience in relationship with God, it would have caused me to even question my faith. That being said, over the course of the next ten years, I would find that my core understanding and beliefs would make a 180 degree change.

While I did not reject every teaching outright. I did begin to question, with the questioning, I looked at the way others believed and taught, compared studied and came away with the most believable understanding based on all.

That all being said, and this is the basis of what I want to point out. As I read the various debates and responses to the issues brought up in this forum and others I have been a part of, I see a trend. Many receive a revelation on one subject for some reason, yet continue to stay close minded to other subjects. It is like they were able to change the way they understood the scripture, when they received the first revelation. Yet fall back into the rut of traditional teachings on other subjects.

It seems we have a fear of hell fire, if we don't accept and believe exactly what is being taught by the man/woman behind the pulpit. It does not help when the man behind the pulpit gives us that very idea.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Aaron

I have had a thought on my mind too, over the course of the last few month that has perplexed me in must the same way as this. I think it may go along with what you have said.

In my youth everything was cut and dried so to speak. My doctrine and teaching came through mostly one man, and the organization I was part of. There came a turning point in my life that caused me to question the very tenants of my teachings, had I not had such a deep experience in relationship with God, it would have caused me to even question my faith. That being said, over the course of the next ten years, I would find that my core understanding and beliefs would make a 180 degree change.

While I did not reject every teaching outright. I did begin to question, with the questioning, I looked at the way others believed and taught, compared studied and came away with the most believable understanding based on all.

That all being said, and this is the basis of what I want to point out. As I read the various debates and responses to the issues brought up in this forum and others I have been a part of, I see a trend. Many receive a revelation on one subject for some reason, yet continue to stay close minded to other subjects. It is like they were able to change the way they understood the scripture, when they received the first revelation. Yet fall back into the rut of traditional teachings on other subjects.

It seems we have a fear of hell fire, if we don't accept and believe exactly what is being taught by the man/woman behind the pulpit. It does not help when the man behind the pulpit gives us that very idea.

Two steps forward, one step back.

I also had something occur that didn't "rock me to my core", or anything, but at the same time, has caused me to more closely examine what I believe and why, and I've come to realize there are now way more questions than answers.

Over the last couple of years, a lot of my time in prayer literally been something like this:

"I don't know, God, and I'm not sure what it is I don't know..."

The curve ball that came my way happened just over two years ago. I was at that point in a very traditional, mostly conservative UPCI Oneness church. To make a long story short, God revealed the future to me about something that was going to happen. I attempted to intervene believing the reason God showed me the future was so that it could be avoided by working together to come to terms and see eye to eye and all of that.

And at first, it was all going that way. It was such a relief to have the burden of my future taken off my shoulders. But then, in an instant, it all 180-ied on me and the very thing that was about to be avoided came true, just as God showed it to me, down to the very last detail.

This event has caused me to ponder at length and in-depth the idea of destiny and the nature of fore-telling prophecy. These ruminations naturally have bled into everything else. I'm still in the woods, so to speak, and haven't yet found my way out to a clearer picture of what is truth and what is not in this regard.

As said before, it didn't rock me or cause me to fall, but it has certainly changed the way I walk. As you said, much used to be cut and dried, black and white. But not anymore. Too many things have happened, I've finally learned how to listen to others as they tell their story and share their beliefs, and some of the very teachings of Christ in the Gospels have come alive in ways they never had before.

One thing I did, some time last year was this: It was about 3:00AM. I had just woken up for whatever reason, and couldn't get back to sleep, so I got up and began to pray, alone, in a pitch-black dark room. I just stood there, held my head in my hands, and feeling led to do so, urgently petitioned the Lord to remove from me every last ounce of human tradition and doctrines of men.

The time must have been orchestrated by God for such a prayer, because He immediately answered and the Holy Spirit came upon me, and moved within me, and caused me to travail and shake. It felt as if the hand of the Lord was in my brain pulling out everything He didn't want to be there. My attic sure got cleaned that night.

But now, I walk more circumspectly, a little less zealous to pack into my brain whatever I used to throw up there, if you will, as it pertains to Biblical doctrine. I am more cautious now to say the least. I think it's in the Epistle of James, where it is said the Word of the Lord is like a mirror showing us who and what we really are.

I am seeing some things about myself I just wasn't ready to see until now. Underlying issues and problems from my childhood, things suffered, and etc. and how those things affected me, even warped me in ways I never before knew.

It was like Jesus had to scrap all the muck and the mud and the tangled roots and weeds away so He could finally get down to the ground of my soul and begin His real work, if you know what I mean.

In the end, it is all for the best. Life sure has become a lot less certain; there aren't as many point A to point B paths for me to take now. But it is right and good that I find myself where I am at these days, as the journey of it all will eventually make me a better man, a better husband, a better father to my children, a better friend, a better brother, and a better Christian. So I say, "Yes, Lord. Here I am. Take me wherever you want me to go".

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Two steps forward, one step back.

I also had something occur that didn't "rock me to my core", or anything, but at the same time, has caused me to more closely examine what I believe and why, and I've come to realize there are now way more questions than answers.

Over the last couple of years, a lot of my time in prayer literally been something like this:

"I don't know, God, and I'm not sure what it is I don't know..."

The curve ball that came my way happened just over two years ago. I was at that point in a very traditional, mostly conservative UPCI Oneness church. To make a long story short, God revealed the future to me about something that was going to happen. I attempted to intervene believing the reason God showed me the future was so that it could be avoided by working together to come to terms and see eye to eye and all of that.

And at first, it was all going that way. It was such a relief to have the burden of my future taken off my shoulders. But then, in an instant, it all 180-ied on me and the very thing that was about to be avoided came true, just as God showed it to me, down to the very last detail.

This event has caused me to ponder at length and in-depth the idea of destiny and the nature of fore-telling prophecy. These ruminations naturally have bled into everything else. I'm still in the woods, so to speak, and haven't yet found my way out to a clearer picture of what is truth and what is not in this regard.

As said before, it didn't rock me or cause me to fall, but it has certainly changed the way I walk. As you said, much used to be cut and dried, black and white. But not anymore. Too many things have happened, I've finally learned how to listen to others as they tell their story and share their beliefs, and some of the very teachings of Christ in the Gospels have come alive in ways they never had before.

One thing I did, some time last year was this: It was about 3:00AM. I had just woken up for whatever reason, and couldn't get back to sleep, so I got up and began to pray, alone, in a pitch-black dark room. I just stood there, held my head in my hands, and feeling led to do so, urgently petitioned the Lord to remove from me every last ounce of human tradition and doctrines of men.

The time must have been orchestrated by God for such a prayer, because He immediately answered and the Holy Spirit came upon me, and moved within me, and caused me to travail and shake. It felt as if the hand of the Lord was in my brain pulling out everything He didn't want to be there. My attic sure got cleaned that night.

But now, I walk more circumspectly, a little less zealous to pack into my brain whatever I used to throw up there, if you will, as it pertains to Biblical doctrine. I am more cautious now to say the least. I think it's in the Epistle of James, where it is said the Word of the Lord is like a mirror showing us who and what we really are.

I am seeing some things about myself I just wasn't ready to see until now. Underlying issues and problems from my childhood, things suffered, and etc. and how those things affected me, even warped me in ways I never before knew.

It was like Jesus had to scrap all the muck and the mud and the tangled roots and weeds away so He could finally get down to the ground of my soul and begin His real work, if you know what I mean.

In the end, it is all for the best. Life sure has become a lot less certain; there aren't as many point A to point B paths for me to take now. But it is right and good that I find myself where I am at these days, as the journey of it all will eventually make me a better man, a better husband, a better father to my children, a better friend, a better brother, and a better Christian. So I say, "Yes, Lord. Here I am. Take me wherever you want me to go".

This post made me do a double-take because I thought perhaps I had written it and forgotten that I did.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Two steps forward, one step back.

I also had something occur that didn't "rock me to my core", or anything, but at the same time, has caused me to more closely examine what I believe and why, and I've come to realize there are now way more questions than answers.

Over the last couple of years, a lot of my time in prayer literally been something like this:

"I don't know, God, and I'm not sure what it is I don't know..."

The curve ball that came my way happened just over two years ago. I was at that point in a very traditional, mostly conservative UPCI Oneness church. To make a long story short, God revealed the future to me about something that was going to happen. I attempted to intervene believing the reason God showed me the future was so that it could be avoided by working together to come to terms and see eye to eye and all of that.

And at first, it was all going that way. It was such a relief to have the burden of my future taken off my shoulders. But then, in an instant, it all 180-ied on me and the very thing that was about to be avoided came true, just as God showed it to me, down to the very last detail.

This event has caused me to ponder at length and in-depth the idea of destiny and the nature of fore-telling prophecy. These ruminations naturally have bled into everything else. I'm still in the woods, so to speak, and haven't yet found my way out to a clearer picture of what is truth and what is not in this regard.

As said before, it didn't rock me or cause me to fall, but it has certainly changed the way I walk. As you said, much used to be cut and dried, black and white. But not anymore. Too many things have happened, I've finally learned how to listen to others as they tell their story and share their beliefs, and some of the very teachings of Christ in the Gospels have come alive in ways they never had before.

One thing I did, some time last year was this: It was about 3:00AM. I had just woken up for whatever reason, and couldn't get back to sleep, so I got up and began to pray, alone, in a pitch-black dark room. I just stood there, held my head in my hands, and feeling led to do so, urgently petitioned the Lord to remove from me every last ounce of human tradition and doctrines of men.

The time must have been orchestrated by God for such a prayer, because He immediately answered and the Holy Spirit came upon me, and moved within me, and caused me to travail and shake. It felt as if the hand of the Lord was in my brain pulling out everything He didn't want to be there. My attic sure got cleaned that night.

But now, I walk more circumspectly, a little less zealous to pack into my brain whatever I used to throw up there, if you will, as it pertains to Biblical doctrine. I am more cautious now to say the least. I think it's in the Epistle of James, where it is said the Word of the Lord is like a mirror showing us who and what we really are.

I am seeing some things about myself I just wasn't ready to see until now. Underlying issues and problems from my childhood, things suffered, and etc. and how those things affected me, even warped me in ways I never before knew.

It was like Jesus had to scrap all the muck and the mud and the tangled roots and weeds away so He could finally get down to the ground of my soul and begin His real work, if you know what I mean.

In the end, it is all for the best. Life sure has become a lot less certain; there aren't as many point A to point B paths for me to take now. But it is right and good that I find myself where I am at these days, as the journey of it all will eventually make me a better man, a better husband, a better father to my children, a better friend, a better brother, and a better Christian. So I say, "Yes, Lord. Here I am. Take me wherever you want me to go".

Originally Posted by Originalist

This post made me do a double-take because I thought perhaps I had written it and forgotten that I did.

I am not sure what point the two of you are on this road to enlightenment, (I use that word sparingly". It seems both of you are just starting down the road. Counting back it is now close to 25 years for me.

One of my son-inlaws made a statement about a month ago, he said, "dad you are so far ahead of us in understanding we are running to catch up". Thing is I don't want anyone to catch up, just to catch up. That is the problem with Christianity, as I see it. One sees a new truth and expects everyone to conform to that so called truth or be damned. I don't believe that is how God intended things to be. Because 90% of the so called truths, are one persons convictions and not true bible doctrine.

These so called bible doctrines range from the essentiality of water baptism, to whether a women can put on makeup or cut her hair. (putting myself out on a limb on that one) The only thing these things have done is cause division in the kingdom of God, we have become neo-Pharisees shutting up the kingdom of God that those that would come in cannot.

All because we are chasing the Myth of Orthodoxy!

[Amanah]

I would like to interject my opinions, suspicions into this thread, knowing that I'm sticking my neck out as most of you are theologians and can debate me under the table. But here is my take on things.

I believe in Oneness and baptism in Jesus name as deeper truths, and I think most of us on this forum at least started from this viewpoint.

I think that many have become discouraged because ministry is tied to
- paying tithes, offerings, missions, ect
- holiness standards
- submissions, the church can have a very controlling feel to it

I think that many decide to leave Oneness churches because the requirements are less onerous elsewhere.

Once they leave and either go house church, or AOG, or whatever, then they have to rethink their doctrinal stance to accommodate their choices.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I would like to interject my opinions, suspicions into this thread, knowing that I'm sticking my neck out as most of you are theologians and can debate me under the table. But here is my take on things.

I believe in Oneness and baptism in Jesus name as deeper truths, and I think most of us on this forum at least started from this viewpoint.

I think that many have become discouraged because ministry is tied to
- paying tithes, offerings, missions, ect
- holiness standards
- submissions, the church can have a very controlling feel to it

I think that many decide to leave Oneness churches because the requirements are less onerous elsewhere.

Once they leave and either go house church, or AOG, or whatever, then they have to rethink their doctrinal stance to accommodate their choices.

There are and have been oneness pentecostal house churches longer than the UPC has existed.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

There are and have been oneness pentecostal house churches longer than the UPC has existed.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I would like to interject my opinions, suspicions into this thread, knowing that I'm sticking my neck out as most of you are theologians and can debate me under the table. But here is my take on things.

I believe in Oneness and baptism in Jesus name as deeper truths, and I think most of us on this forum at least started from this viewpoint.

I think that many have become discouraged because ministry is tied to
- paying tithes, offerings, missions, ect
- holiness standards
- submissions, the church can have a very controlling feel to it

I think that many decide to leave Oneness churches because the requirements are less onerous elsewhere.

Once they leave and either go house church, or AOG, or whatever, then they have to rethink their doctrinal stance to accommodate their choices.

Bingo!

But in my case, having come from AG to Oneness, but having never counted my former associates as anything less than full brothers-in-Christ, I will not succumb to the tendency you describe here. Sadly, I'm left without a home.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I would like to interject my opinions, suspicions into this thread, knowing that I'm sticking my neck out as most of you are theologians and can debate me under the table. But here is my take on things.

I believe in Oneness and baptism in Jesus name as deeper truths, and I think most of us on this forum at least started from this viewpoint.

I think that many have become discouraged because ministry is tied to
- paying tithes, offerings, missions, ect
- holiness standards
- submissions, the church can have a very controlling feel to it

I think that many decide to leave Oneness churches because the requirements are less onerous elsewhere.

Once they leave and either go house church, or AOG, or whatever, then they have to rethink their doctrinal stance to accommodate their choices.

Not necessarily true although in some cases it might be that way. For myself my doctrinal stance changed on most everything, long before I left UPCI.

I will say this though, I have heard more differing view points on how one understands the oneness of the Godhead, than those that believe in the trinity. Not saying the belief in the trinity is right, but because of the differing views on oneness I know longer believe that one must have a complete understanding of the Godhead to be saved, or many oneness would be lost.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I would like to interject my opinions, suspicions into this thread, knowing that I'm sticking my neck out as most of you are theologians and can debate me under the table. But here is my take on things.

I believe in Oneness and baptism in Jesus name as deeper truths, and I think most of us on this forum at least started from this viewpoint.

I think that many have become discouraged because ministry is tied to
- paying tithes, offerings, missions, ect
- holiness standards
- submissions, the church can have a very controlling feel to it

I think that many decide to leave Oneness churches because the requirements are less onerous elsewhere.

Once they leave and either go house church, or AOG, or whatever, then they have to rethink their doctrinal stance to accommodate their choices.

I have met and personally know several different people who, having taken offense at something that happened in and through their church, tossed away their understanding of truth as they left.

To me, that is a sad mistake. If someone has come to have core convictions about a doctrine, that contradicts the view of the local body, he or she is left with three choices:

1.) Stay and learn to live with it, but keep it quiet.
2.) Stay and try to discuss and bring about change
3.) Leave

When I see people leave their church, many times I see them leave the very Lord of the church who saved them. I suspect the issue is they had more of a relationship with the Bride than the Bridge-groom, although I do know of a few situations where someone was hurt so badly by some really messed up stuff, that even though their heart still longs for the Lord, their wounds have left them a heap of ruins.

All told, there are probably 100 different, possible reasons why 100 different people left their local assembly to congregate elsewhere.

And being transparent, I do think there are times when the leaving is orchestrated by the Lord, to remove His elect from a situation that would otherwise eventually destroy them if they stayed.

A lot of people seem to have the view that if you've walked away for the tradition church model, that you've left the Body of Christ, but that just isn't true. We have received the adoption of sons and daughters. We are not disowned and orphaned by the Lord as no longer His, unless reprobation occurs, which is rare, even almost never heart of, and is something He, and not us, gets to decide whenever and wherever it may be necessary.