It's Your Fault People Are Homosexual

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

http://www.gospeltruth.net/1837LTPC/...experience.htm

"III. I will lay down some principles and facts, that have a bearing on the elucidation of this subject.

1. It is true, that mankind act, in all cases, and from the nature of mind must always act, as on the whole they feel to be preferable.

Or, in other words, the will governs the conduct. Men never act against their will. The will governs the motion of the limbs. Voluntary beings cannot act contrary to their will.

2. Men often desire what, on the whole, they do not choose.

The desires and the will are often opposed to each other.

In Romans 7 the context shows how the will and the actual actions are opposed to one another. But I understand the point the writer makes here, but will show where I think he is in error.

The conduct is governed by the choice, not by the desires. The desires may be inconsistent with the choice. You may desire to go to some other place to-night, and yet on the whole choose to remain here. Perhaps you desire very strongly to be somewhere else, and yet choose to remain in meeting. ... In all cases, the conduct follows the actual choice.

To me, this is a reaching sort of explanation. The plain reading of the passage shows Paul hating the things he willed to not do. When one uses that kind of strong language the issue is far more serious than simply desiring something apart from the choice one makes. Clearly Paul's desire was his choice in Romans 7 due to the strong language he uses.

And I have to also say that this view seems to have the overall tone of naturalizing everything and removing the quite supernatural aspect that is really involved here with sin and even with God's influence. I understand you keep Sabbath, Esaias, as well as other things I would consider legalistic. And not to get into that argument all over again, but what I consider error with sabbath keeping is the same sort of error I see, in the general sense, of your view of Romans 7. It puts all the onus on us and seems to remove the aspect of our need for the supernatural power of God's Spirit to help us. If I am correct, and Romans 7 is speaking for both believers who do not know how to rely on the spirit as well as sinners, then God' supernatural influence is required for our victory. If you are right, then we don;'t need any supernatural empowerment, but simply the power of choice. So, I see the overall aspect of naturalizing it all in your overall approach. Just my opinion and observation

3. Regeneration, or conversion, is a change in the choice.

It is a change in the supreme controlling choice of the mind. The regenerated or converted person prefers God's glory to every thing else. He chooses it as the supreme object of affection. This is a change of heart. Before, he chose his own interest or happiness, as his supreme end. Now, he chooses God's service in preference to his own interest. When a person is truly born again, his choice is habitually right, and of course his conduct is in the main right.

This does not address things Paul noted that I believe I personally experienced. When I was first saved, I was sold out to God. No questions about it. And yet I did things I did not want to do but felt I was powerless. So I related to exactly what Paul stated in Romans 7. And as I said, Gal 5 said that so long as we walk after the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. But I never knew how to do that. I now realize it's explained in Rom 6. But no one taught me that. Romans 6 was off the agenda.

So, I lived what I am saying Romans 7 spoke about as a BELIEVER. I had the choice in full force in my desire. But I did not have the ability.

To me, it's reaching to say that Paul used such strong language saying he had the will but no power to perform it if it was only talking about his lack of actually choosing to do it.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What's up with the ice sculpture of Brother Ronnie Sexton? Must of been done before he shaved his beard off?

It's not ice. It's glass and sand.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It's not ice. It's glass and sand.

Ok, I'll tell Brother Ronnie that you have a glass sand bust of his head.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Ok, I'll tell Brother Ronnie that you have a glass sand bust of his head.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

So, I lived what I am saying Romans 7 spoke about as a BELIEVER. I had the choice in full force in my desire. But I did not have the ability.

Wanting and choosing are not the same thing. Not understanding that difference is an error. Sinners may want to do right, but do not actually choose right.

Romans 6 does indeed explain it all: one has to yield to God, JUST AS they once yielded to sin.

[Aquila]

I'm not convinced it is a choice. That is because I'm straight, and I always have been. I couldn't choose to be with another male. My body wouldn't even become aroused enough.

Many gay people say their sexuality wasn't a choice for them either. They simply are not, and never have been, aroused by the opposite gender.

Those who think it is a choice, well, maybe they could choose either or. I think it is possible that they are bisexual.

But, I will also say that being born with a sinful proclivity doesn't mean that said proclivity isn't a sin. We're all born with various sinful proclivities.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'm not convinced it is a choice. That is because I'm straight, and I always have been. I couldn't choose to be with another male. My body wouldn't even become aroused enough.

Many gay people say their sexuality wasn't a choice for them either. They simply are not, and never have been, aroused by the opposite gender.

Those who think it is a choice, well, maybe they could choose either or. I think it is possible that they are bisexual.

But, I will also say that being born with a sinful proclivity doesn't mean that said proclivity isn't a sin. We're all born with various sinful proclivities.

they may hot be attracted to the opposite sex but they still have the choice to obey the bible.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

they may hot be attracted to the opposite sex but they still have the choice to obey the bible.

Amen.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Wanting and choosing are not the same thing. Not understanding that difference is an error. Sinners may want to do right, but do not actually choose right.

Romans 6 does indeed explain it all: one has to yield to God, JUST AS they once yielded to sin.

I lived what I am saying by CHOOSING and WANTING the same thing and being unable to fullfil it.... as a saved person in my early christian years.. And yielding to God sees power come on the believer, and if the person wants and chooses, but does not yield to God one will fail as Paul described. Yielding to God is not just being saved. It is going further with that and understanding we are dead to sin, so we do not have to exert fleshly energy to serve god and fail. It's more than yielding to God. It is yielding to God AS ONE WHO IS ALIVE FROM THE DEAD and knows what that entails. Believers who do not know what that entails are the ones who do not know they're dead to sin and that sin has no more power over them.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

And yielding to God sees power come on the believer, and if the person wants and chooses, but does not yield to God one will fail as Paul described.

How does a person choose without yielding? Paul said AS YOU HAVE YIELDED YOURSELVES TO SIN...YIELD YOURSELVES TO GOD.

THAT is the "choosing". Previously, we chose to serve sin. Now, we are to choose to serve God. And the only way that works is by the power of the Holy Ghost applying the cross to our lives.

Romans 7 describes the unregenerate Jew. A Christian living in Romans 7 is at best living in ignorance of the true power of the Gospel. "According to your faith be it unto you."

You and I are not that far apart on this issue, really I'm thinking it's more semantics than anything else.