How old do you think the universe is?

[shag]

I do not, at all, believe in a gap between Daniels 69th and 70th week nor between Genesis 1:1 & 1:2.
6 literal 24 hour days is good enough for me

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shag

I do not, at all, believe in a gap between Daniels 69th and 70th week nor between Genesis 1:1 & 1:2.
6 literal 24 hour days is good enough for me

The gap in Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 means 6 literal 24 hour days anyway, if that's your issue.

[Esaias]

In the following citations, every occurrence of bara will be marked in red bold, and every occurrence of asah will be marked in green bold.

Genesis 1:1-31 KJV In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (2) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (3) And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (4) And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. (5) And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. (6) And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. (7) And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. (8) And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. (9) And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. (10) And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. (11) And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. (12) And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (13) And the evening and the morning were the third day. (14) And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: (15) And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. (16) And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. (17) And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, (18) And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. (19) And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. (20) And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. (21) And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (22) And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. (23) And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. (24) And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. (25) And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (26) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (28) And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (29) And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. (30) And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. (31) And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Summary:

The following were bara'd:

• The heaven and the earth
• Great whales
• Every living creature brought forth by the waters
• Birds
• Man

The following were asah'd:

• The firmament (heaven)
• The sun
• The moon
• The stars
• The beast of the earth
• Cattle
• Every creeping thing
• Man
• Everything

Note: Trees are said to bara fruit.

Conclusion:

If the terms bara and asah indicate different actions, then whales, fish, and birds were created but land beasts, cattle, and bugs were made. Also, man was both created and made. Also, heaven was both created and made. Also, everything was both created and made. This however doesn't make sense. As can be seen from the text, God says "let's asah man" but instead He actually bara'd man. Sea animals were bara'd but land animals were asah'd. If this supposed distinction were correct, then God only said the land animals of the sixth day were "very good" since He actually bara'd man.

But wait, there's more:

Genesis 2:1-4 KJV Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. (2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. (3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. (4) These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

• God rested on the seventh day from everything He had asah'd.
• God rested on the seventh day from everything He had bara'd.
• God blessed the seventh day because in it He rested from all His work, which was both bara'd and asah'd.
• The heavens and the earth were bara'd in the day (time) they were asah'd.

Again, the Scriptures use the two terms to refer to the same thing - God creating, or making, the heaven and the earth and all things in them.

Exodus 20:11 KJV For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

God Himself says that He asah'd the heaven and earth, the sea, and everything in them (heaven, earth, and sea). He also claims He asah'd all these things in six days. Again, there is no substantive distinction between the uses of the two terms.

It is argued that certain things are bara'd, and others are asah'd, and that those things which are bara'd have something in common, and those things which are asah'd have something else in common. Yet, the heaven and earth are said in Scripture to have been both bara'd, and asah'd. Man was both bara'd, and asah'd. In fact, everything was said to have been both bara'd, and asah'd. So, again, there is no substantive difference between the uses of the term that have anything to do with the TIME of creation - how long it took, or how long ago it occurred.

Why two different terms? The same reason we have two different terms in English - "create" and "make". Each term has subtle distinctions of meaning, but those differences are one of emphasis, not a substantive difference. for example, if I said "I made a meal", or if I said "I created a meal", absolutely nothing could be determined from the uses of the two terms as far as how long it took for me to produce the meal (ah, there's yet another word, a third term). "Creating" a meal CAN (but does not necessarily) imply that I thought the meal up on my own, and was thus an original creation. "Making" a meal implies (but again, not necessarily) that I simply produced a meal with no reference or implication to the originality of the recipe - I could have created it out of my imagination, or I could have simply prepared a meal designed completely by someone else. Two terms, with slightly different meanings, but not used in such a way as to REQUIRE two different mechanisms or two different actions: both terms can refer to the same act.

And that is the point, the bible uses both terms, bara and asah, to refer to the same acts.

Again, the heaven and the earth are said to have been "created" in Genesis 1:1, but in Exodus 20:11 the heaven and the earth are said to have been asah'd. And again, the heavens and the earth are said to have been both bara'd, and asah'd, in the summary of Genesis 2:1-4.

It is claimed that bara means creation "ex nihilo", whereas asah means "formed from pre-existing material". But the heaven and the earth were both bara'd, and asah'd. Something cannot be both ex nihilo, and formed from pre-existing material... unless the terms are referring to the same action. And if it be argued that heaven and earth were created ex nihilo, and then afterwards formed to be what they eventually became, then the difference is a distinction without a purpose: What difference would it make to this discussion? Of course God started ex nihilo, nobody argues otherwise! The important thing is that the two terms are used to refer to the same things in the creation account, therefore the terms themselves provide ZERO DATA regarding the age of the universe.

If there is a "gap" of time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, the terms bara and asah have nothing to do with it and inform us of nothing concerning that supposed gap. The gap would have to be proven by other means.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Since creatures had LIFE as well as material bodies MADE FROM something else, we can see creation and making in both instances. But the creation would refer to life in creatures alone, and not their material aspects.

The "life" in the creatures was not created ex nihilo, as your statement here seems to suggest. The waters were commanded to "bring forth" the sea creatures and birds, the earth was commanded to "bring forth" animals (as well as plants). So the question is, where did their "life" come from? Was it created ex nihilo? No.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 KJV (18) I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. (19) For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. (20) All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (21) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Here Solomon is commenting on the similarity between men and living creatures (beasts), that they have essentially the same apparent fate - death. Both are of the dust (earth) and both return to dust. But in his remarks is an interesting statement that the spirit of the beasts goes downward to the earth, whereas the spirit of men goes upward (obviously, to heaven and to God). This is further confirmed in the same book:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

From this we see that the spirit (of life, the animating factor) of beasts returns to the earth, and the spirit of man returns to God who gave it. This of course reflects the Genesis account where God "breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life".

Nothing is said or implied about the spirits of beasts or of people being "created ex nihilo", in fact the opposite seems to be suggested - that the spirit of beasts comes from the earth and the spirit of man comes from God.

In any event, the use of terms like "bara" and "asah" do not prove anything one way or the other in regards to these things, as shown.

Edit to add:

Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

The word there is asah - God asah'd the angels as spirit beings. Apparently He did not bara them?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

bara (בָּרָא, to create)

asah (עָשָׂה, to make or do).

The difference between something that's created and something that's made is that when something is created it is brought into existence out of nothing. But, that which is made has been formed out of something else that already exists. God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1), so He did not form them from something already in existence.

That which is made has been formed out of something else that already exists - the heavens and the earth were not formed from something already in existence.

This is saying that the heavens and earth were bara'd, not asah'd. Yet, I have already shown several times that the heavens and the earth were not only bara'd, but also asah'd, which contradicts your statements here.

Psalms 33:6 KJV By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Here, the heavens were asah'd. This is a direct contradiction to your statement that things which were created were not made, that the heavens and the earth were created but not made. This means you did not understand the meanings of bara and asah and how they relate to one another and (more importantly) how they are actually used in Scripture in reference to the Creation.

Psalms 95:5 KJV The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands formed the dry land.

Here, the sea was asah'd. Out of what substance was the sea made? In the Genesis account it says God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was under water. Yet here the sea is said to be made. Obviously, God asah'ing the sea does not require it to have been formed from previously existing things. (Note: it may be said the water, the abyss, the "deep", was previously existing, and the "sea" was "formed" out of the abyssal waters when God caused the waters under the heaven to be gathered together so the dry land could appear, and the gathering of the waters were then called "seas". However, what is here said to be made is not the seas (plural, as in Genesis), but "sea" singular, the one original sea, which would be the abyss. So again, out of what was the "deep" formed?)

Psalms 96:5 KJV For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

Here, a clear and positive statement that the Lord "made" - asah'd - the heavens. According to your definitions, this would mean the heavens were formed out of some previously existing substance, which would contradict your other assertion that the heavens were created, not made, ex nihilo, and that the heavens were not formed from something already in existence.

Psalms 115:15 KJV Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.

Here, again, the Lord asah'd heaven and earth. According to your definitions, God did not asah the heaven and the earth, they were bara'd, because asah means to form something out of previously existing stuff. Yet, the bible plainly states the heaven and earth were asah'd.

Isaiah 43:1 KJV But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Here, God claims to have created, or bara'd, Jacob/Israel. Yet, the Israelites were not created ex nihilo, they were formed from a man named Jacob and His four wives, and each succeeding Israelite was formed from his or her mother and father on down through the generations. Humans are not created ex nihilo, but are made of their parents. Yet, Israelites are said to have been bara'd, which would be impossible by your definitions. In fact, what is specifically said to have been created is the nation of Jacob, the Israelites considered as a unitary whole, a nation of people. Yet, it is a fact that a mass of related people descended from Jacob were made into a nation by the hand
of God. That means the nation was formed out of something pre-existing the nation. Which in turn means your definition of bara is not quite correct, as it is used by Scripture in a manner that contradicts your definition.

I will not go further, as the scriptural evidence shows conclusively that bara does not require the idea of "creation ex nihilo", and that asah does not require the idea of "formed out of pre-existing material." I have shown that your definitions of bara and asah do not match how they are actually used in Scripture, and your conclusions which you stated concerning them are directly contradicted by several Scriptures.

So then, the whole bara vs asah issue having been addressed, we can move on to the "gap theory". If anyone would like to present evidence there is a gap between verses 1 and 2 of Genesis ch 1, indicating a long period of time between them, please feel free to do so now.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

http://ichthys.com/sr2-copy.htm

. . .

II. The Context of Judgment in Genesis Chapter 1: If the language of Genesis 1:1-2 argues for a gap between original creation and the seven days of re-creation, the context of what follows the first sentence in the Word of God would seem to demand it. The contextual problems involved in taking Genesis 1:1 as a summary rather than an event in its own right are daunting indeed, especially if one stipulates a grammatically correct translation of the two verses:

Before all else, God created the heavens and the earth. But the earth came to be ruined and despoiled – darkness lay upon the face of the abyss while God's Spirit brooded over the surface of its waters.

. . .

Genesis 1:1-2 KJV In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (2) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Genesis 1:1-2 JPS In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (2) Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters.

Genesis 1:1-2 YLT In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth-- (2) the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

Genesis 1:1-2 LITV In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth; (2) and the earth being without form and empty, and darkness on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moving gently on the face of the waters,

Genesis 1:1-2 MKJV In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (2) And the earth was without form and empty. And darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters.

Genesis 1:1-2 RV In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (2) And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Genesis 1:1-2 ASV In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (2) And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Genesis 1:1-2 DRB In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. (2) And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.

Genesis 1:1-2 ESV In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. (2) The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.


Genesis 1:1-2 Geneva In the beginning God created the heauen and the earth. (2) And the earth was without forme and voide, and darkenesse was vpon the deepe, and the Spirit of God moued vpon ye waters.

Genesis 1:1-2 Bishops In the beginnyng GOD created ye heauen and the earth. (2) And the earth was without fourme, and was voyde: & darknes [was] vpon the face of the deepe, and the spirite of God moued vpon the face of the waters.

Genesis 1:1-2 Coverdale (1) In ye begynnynge God created heauen & earth: (2) and ye earth was voyde and emptie, and darcknes was vpon the depe, & ye sprete of God moued vpo the water.

Genesis 1:1-2 Brenton In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth. (2) But the earth was unsightly and unfurnished, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.

Genesis 1:1-2 ABP In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth. (2) But the earth was unseen and unready, and darkness was upon the abyss, and spirit of God bore upon the water.

Genesis 1:1-2 DRB In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. (2) And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.

I cannot find a translation that matches the website's proffered version. I cannot find a translation of the Hebrew, Greek, or Latin that corresponds to what your website resource claims should be correct. While that in itself doesn't prove the website's translation is incorrect, it certainly seems strange that EVERYONE who actually knows Hebrew, Greek, and Latin chose not to translate the scripture the way the website author chose. What are his/her credentials in ancient languages and translation?

5. The Timing of the Satanic Rebellion: Finally, it should be mentioned that, in addition to the compelling reasons listed above for placing Satan's rebellion within the time frame of the Genesis Gap (that is, between original creation and the eventual re-creation of the earth – a period of unspecified length), there is, in fact, no other period in which it can reasonably be located. After the angels sing for joy with obvious relief at earth's re-creation (and the sea's restriction: Job 38:4-11), the temptation of Adam and Eve by Satan follows their creation in apparently rapid succession, leaving scant time for Satan's own fall and seduction of a large portion of angelic kind (Genesis 1-3; see Part 1 of this series).

There is no "satan's rebellion" in the Bible as being presented here, that is the catholic "lucifer" myth of a fallen angel, Lucifer, who was the choir director in heaven, who rebelled against God and became Satan, then possessed a snake in the Garden to trick Adam and Eve into sinning. I cannot find the verse which says it was Satan, or a fallen angel, or someone named Lucifer, or an angel at all of any kind, which tempted Eve.

[Esaias]

After the angels sing for joy with obvious relief at earth's re-creation (and the sea's restriction: Job 38:4-11),

I am copying a post of mine from the Debate section concerning this subject, because it addresses Job 38 and the time frame for the events described therein:



First let's establish what took place at creation:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
(Genesis 1:1 KJV)

The first thing that happened was God created the heavens and the earth. This was 'ex nihilo' meaning out of nothing came the heavens and the earth. There is a grammatical argument to be made that bereshith 'in the beginning' means not merely first in time but first in such a way as that what follows - created heavens and earth - occurred prior to God creating anything else. Thus, the heavens and earth were created PRIOR to any other thing God created - including angels. And thus, there were no angelic beings present at the creating of the heavens and the earth. And thus, no angels were singing or praising God WHEN He made the heavens and earth.

Now, let's see when the stars were created:

And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
(Genesis 1:16-19 KJV)

Stars were made on the fourth day of the Creation Week, four days AFTER the heavens and the earth were created. Therefore, no stars - whether morning or evening stars - were present when God created the heavens and the earth. In fact, evening and morning were not created until AFTER the heavens and the earth had been created, because AFTER the heavens and the earth were created, darkness was everywhere, and THEN God created light, and then divided the light from the darkness, and THEN we have evening and morning. So again there could not have been any evening or morning stars when God created the heavens and the earth.

So what does Job say?

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
(Job 38:4-7 KJV)

We know the morning stars never sang for joy WHEN God created the heavens and the earth, as before proven. So the idea that this passage in Job means the angels all shouted for joy at the creation of the universe is obviously incorrect. The reason being that the morning stars singing and the sons of God shouting for joy could not possibly have occurred at the creation of the heavens and the earth, because there was no morning and there were no stars at that event, and thus no morning stars. Thus, whatever this event is when the morning stars sang and the sons of God shouted - IS NOT THE CREATION.

So what's going on?

It should be noted that the punctuation in English bibles is not inspired, and not present in the ancient manuscripts and texts. the semi colon (";") at the end of verse 6 is not inspired. The question mark at the end of verse 7 is likewise not inspired. In other words, verse 6 could be the beginning of a new sentence, as follows:

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof. When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy,
(Job 38:4-7 KJV)

Requiring verse 8 for it's completion, as follows:

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy, Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
(Job 38:7-8 KJV)

I can find no corresponding Hebrew term or grammatical element that corresponds to 'or' in verse 8. 'Who' is supplied by the translators in order to translate the term for ''shut up" because it is understood, but 'or' seems to likewise be a translator-added term. Simply following the Hebrew it reads like this:

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy,[] who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
(Job 38:7-8 KJV)

Thus, it reads as God asking Job "When the morning stars sang together and the sons of God shouted for joy, Who shut up the sea with doors when it broke forth, as if it was gushing from the womb?" When the earth was created, the waters did not 'gush forth' anywhere, they simply WERE. The only time the waters 'broke forth as if from a womb' would be the Deluge. During the Flood waters not only gushed forth from the deeps but also from the windows of heaven above. When God stopped the Flood, and the waters receded being restrained and bound by the power of God, not only would the stars be visible*, but the 'sons of God' ie Noah and his sons would likely have shouted for joy.

Wouldn't you?

So in Job 38, the sons of God need not be angels, and it is certain that whoever these sons of God were, they were not shouting in exclamation at God creating the earth, because they shouted when the morning stars sang together, and there were no stars - morning or otherwise - when the foundations of the earth were laid. And the text supports a two-part description, one referring to the foundation of the earth, and the second referring to the end of the Flood when the stars sang and sons of God shouted.

*Note: The stars 'singing for joy' is a poetic expression whereby inanimate objects are said to perform rational actions as a means of 'praising God'. It does not mean any sounds were emitted from the stars, anymore than similar language about trees and mountains praising God mean similar things. It does however mean that the glory, mercy, power, and greatness of God are displayed via the natural created world and it's phenomena, in this case the stars. some suppose that 'morning stars' refers to angels, but this is utterly unfounded, as the phrase 'morning stars' is nowhere found outside of this passage in job, and only Christ is called 'Bright and Morning Star', and it is clear from Hebrews 1 that Christ is not an angel except metaphorically.

(end of quotation)

So then, Job 38:4-11, in regard to the sons of God shouting for joy etc is identified as taking place after the Flood. That would be the flood of Noah's day, as there is no other Flood (other than relatively insignificant post-Deluge floodings) described in Scripture. One common idea held by gap theorists is that Gen 1:2 describes the results of a massive flood. Perhaps those here who believe the gap theory can provide the Scriptural documentation for said flood (assuming they believe Gen 1:2 describes the aftermath of a universal flood)?

[Amanah]

Esaias I'm pondering what you have typed and am stuck on this point:

Is the Serpent in Gen 3 and Lucifer in Isaiah 14 and the Dragon in Rev 12 all the same being? It seems you are saying they are not the same. If not who was in the garden tempting Eve?

[Carl]

Thanks Esaias for these posts! Well researched and thought out.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Esaias I'm pondering what you have typed and am stuck on this point:

Is the Serpent in Gen 3 and Lucifer in Isaiah 14 and the Dragon in Rev 12 all the same being? It seems you are saying they are not the same. If not who was in the garden tempting Eve?

Lucifer in Isaiah 14 is the king of Babylon, and not a supernatural spirit being.

The serpent in the Garden was "the most subtil of creatures that God made" showing that the serpent's cunning was part of it's initial and intrinsic being - it was made that way.

The dragon in Revelation is the great red dragon CALLED "the Devil, and Satan", and which "is the Devil, and Satan". But who and what is the devil, and satan?

Both of those terms are generic terms meaning accuser and adversary, respectively. The terms devil and satan apply to several different things in Scripture, and do not always refer to the same thing.

Peter was "satan" when he declared his intention to prevent the arrest and crucifixion of Christ. Judas was "a devil", even before "satan entered" him at the Last Supper. Satan's throne was said to be in Pergamus, which makes no sense at all if Satan is a specific, individual spirit being.

In fact, if Satan and The Devil is an individual spirit being, then he must be omnipresent - which is impossible.

The serpent in the garden was certainly a satan to Eve, in that he seduced her and brought about her and Adam's downfall. But the serpent in the garden didn't set up his throne in Pergamus, and didn't control the Roman Empire, and didn't try to have Jesus killed at His birth (that last would have been Herod, to be specific).

The ancient prophecy was that the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent. If the serpent was THE Devil, so that there is no other(s), then Calvary would have ended any operations of Satan, and nobody would have any problems whatsoever from Satan. But we see from both Scripture and actual experience that "satan" is very much active in the world. And therefore, either Calvary didn't actually do anything worthwhile - or there is more than one "satan" and "devil."