Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?

[JoeBandy]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Revelation 1:3

Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who understand, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is close.

The writer of this book penned these words of blessing to people who would understand. What they had going for them is that they were closer to the issues than we are. They were living at a time when people understood the language,understood the times, were taught (some of them) by actual apostles who were with Christ. They were Diaspora Judeans who already had for hundreds of years been reading an OT in Greek so the Greek Revelation of Christ wasn't hard for them to understand. We on the other hand are on the other end of the spectrum. We have been indoctrinated by the Irvin Baxter Jrs and the Tim Lahayes of the world, We have been Charles Larkined to death. We have been told time and time again that the events in the book of Revelation are pointing to every world dictator or president this country had an issue with. Because instead of studying out the Old Testament, and trying to see what the tribes were actually waiting for, we would rather have someone else to the heavy lifting for us. Waiting for someone to sit down and spoon feed us with some ecclesiastical fast food.

Answer this, why are the first century A.D. readers told to understand and solve the gematria numerals of the beast? They are told it's a man, and for them to figure out his name he obviously had to be living in their time. Why? because the question is being posed to "them"

Wisdom is needed here. Let the one with understanding solve the meaning of the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is 666.

If this book of the Bible was enigmatic, this verse we are specifically told wasn't.

Especially since it is pointed to the original readers who needed to have the wisdom, and through that gain understanding. Folks please take into consideration that you are reading manuscripts which date back to the Bronze age. The book of Revelation doesn't stand alone, isn't interpreted by the New Testament alone. You need to know the OT, with the prophets. Understand that the OT Hebrews weren't awaiting Azusa Street.

Good grief! Another issue we agree on. Hold On folks a storm is brewing!! LOL!!

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by JoeBandy

Good grief! Another issue we agree on. Hold On folks a storm is brewing!! LOL!!

Lol

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Revelation 1:3

we would rather have someone else to the heavy lifting for us. Waiting for someone to sit down and spoon feed us with some ecclesiastical fast food.

I have a question for you my Brother, how long did it take for you to transition from dispensationalism, to mid trib, to historicism, to PP?

and yes, I'm a and want to take advantage of the study of others

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I have a question for you my Brother, how long did it take for you to transition from dispensationalism, to mid trib, to historicism, to PP?

Never was a Dispensationalist, but was told to read and understand what was the hope of the OT Isrealies. So I was always Historic Post Trib. Then one day I got into a debate and had to consider what the present audience needed to understand. I had to fully understand that those who were listening to the Revelation, had to be the ones being the first recipients of the book's blessing.
Yet, we are literally convinced that for over 2,000 years and counting it wasn't meant for any of the readers? My lands it has a warning that no one is to misinterpret a book to readers over 2,000 years ago? But it was impossible for them to understand it? All this made me consider that where I was at in my privious eschatology needed to be reexamined. I didn't do this in a corner, I took my show on the road, and bounced it off of one and all. Sadly I found out that my dearest breathren didn't even know actually what they believed.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Never was a Dispensationalist, but was told to read and understand what was the hope of the OT Isrealies. So I was always Historic Post Trib. Then one day I got into a debate and had to consider what the present audience needed to understand. I had to fully understand that those who were listening to the Revelation, had to be the ones being the first recipients of the book's blessing.
Yet, we are literally convinced that for over 2,000 years and counting it wasn't meant for any of the readers? My lands it has a warning that no one is to misinterpret a book to readers over 2,000 years ago? But it was impossible for them to understand it? All this made me consider that where I was at in my privious eschatology needed to be reexamined. I didn't do this in a corner, I took my show on the road, and bounced it off of one and all. Sadly I found out that my dearest breathren didn't even know actually what they believed.

In the midst of all the craziness of my life I'm slowly trying to take the same journey...in a corner for now until I get more sure of my understanding.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Never was a Dispensationalist, but was told to read and understand what was the hope of the OT Isrealies. So I was always Historic Post Trib. Then one day I got into a debate and had to consider what the present audience needed to understand. I had to fully understand that those who were listening to the Revelation, had to be the ones being the first recipients of the book's blessing.

The "seed of a woman" defeating the serpent was a prophecy of a virgin birth. This prophecy was fulfilled thousands of years after the time of its original recipients. Certainly every generation who understood the prophecy (to at least some degree) thought that it might be fulfilled in their day, though it wasn't. I don't see an issue.

Yet, we are literally convinced that for over 2,000 years and counting it wasn't meant for any of the readers? My lands it has a warning that no one is to misinterpret a book to readers over 2,000 years ago? But it was impossible for them to understand it? All this made me consider that where I was at in my privious eschatology needed to be reexamined. I didn't do this in a corner, I took my show on the road, and bounced it off of one and all. Sadly I found out that my dearest breathren didn't even know actually what they believed.

Where does the Revelation offer a warning to those who misinterpret it? I do know of a warning against tampering with the text:

Revelation 22:18-19 King James Version (KJV)
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Thus protecting the text from being tampered with for the sake of future generations was seen as an absolute necessity. So important in fact, tampering with the text could cost one their soul.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

and yes, I'm a and want to take advantage of the study of others

Yet, isn't that how we originally got in the pickle we were in?

One Bible and so many opinions? Jesus Christ and the Cross has to be the main focus of our final conclusion. Jesus told the thief, I tell you this day, you will be in Eden with Me. Awesome words for those who understand them.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Revelation 1:3

Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who understand, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is close.

The writer of this book penned these words of blessing to people who would understand. What they had going for them is that they were closer to the issues than we are. They were living at a time when people understood the language,understood the times, were taught (some of them) by actual apostles who were with Christ. They were Diaspora Judeans who already had for hundreds of years been reading an OT in Greek so the Greek Revelation of Christ wasn't hard for them to understand. We on the other hand are on the other end of the spectrum. We have been indoctrinated by the Irvin Baxter Jrs and the Tim Lahayes of the world, We have been Charles Larkined to death. We have been told time and time again that the events in the book of Revelation are pointing to every world dictator or president this country had an issue with. Because instead of studying out the Old Testament, and trying to see what the tribes were actually waiting for, we would rather have someone else to the heavy lifting for us. Waiting for someone to sit down and spoon feed us with some ecclesiastical fast food.

Answer this, why are the first century A.D. readers told to understand and solve the gematria numerals of the beast? They are told it's a man, and for them to figure out his name he obviously had to be living in their time. Why? because the question is being posed to "them"

Wisdom is needed here. Let the one with understanding solve the meaning of the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is 666.

If this book of the Bible was enigmatic, this verse we are specifically told wasn't.

Especially since it is pointed to the original readers who needed to have the wisdom, and through that gain understanding. Folks please take into consideration that you are reading manuscripts which date back to the Bronze age. The book of Revelation doesn't stand alone, isn't interpreted by the New Testament alone. You need to know the OT, with the prophets. Understand that the OT Hebrews weren't awaiting Azusa Street.

Good post!

[Aquila]

Many Preterists have made the case that it would make no sense to present an audience with a prophetic work declaring imminence if it did not pertain to them. But the same could be said about readers today. Why would God preserve a prophetic work declaring imminence for us to pour over if it absolutely doesn't pertain to us today?

The Revelation has given hope and assurance to nearly every generation of Christian in that they have perceived its fulfillment as being imminent. Think of it this way, those in the first century were Futurists. No doubt they expected Christ to return within 3.5 years of the Temple being destroyed by Titus. But the honest to God truth is... Jesus didn't return. They were mistaken. As the Catholic Church grew in power and the Holy Roman Empire persecuted true believers, no doubt they envisioned how the Catholic Church might be the terrible Beast foretold in Scripture. As time passed and literal fulfillments were lacking, the Reformers stretched out the time line to see if they could find shadows of fulfillment throughout history to justify their suspicions that the Papacy of the Catholic Church was the Beast. And they too were convinced. But as time passed and history marched on the Historicist expectation of Christ returning in the late 1700's to early 1900's never materialized. They too were mistaken. And as our world globalizes with weapons that can indeed burn a third of the planet easily, the possibility of global inflation, global war, and even a global Beast like power... our generation looks cautiously at what is developing around the world thinking we might indeed be living in times that will see the rise of the Beast. Might we be mistaken too? YES! But at some point, perhaps when saints are in spiritual slumber ignoring the watchmen on the wall, the prophecies will break forth with such force it will rock the slumbering body of Christ to its core. Those few who are alert and watching will indeed one day see the prophecy unfold right before their very eyes.

It has served a purpose for every generation. The purpose of giving Christians hope and faith in absolute victory over all earthly enemies... and the promise of a coming Millennium. And one day, it will indeed come to pass.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Many Preterists have made the case that it would make no sense to present an audience with a prophetic work declaring imminence if it did not pertain to them. But the same could be said about readers today. Why would God preserve a prophetic work declaring imminence for us to pour over if it absolutely doesn't pertain to us today?

The Revelation has given hope and assurance to nearly every generation of Christian in that they have perceived its fulfillment as being imminent. Think of it this way, those in the first century were Futurists. No doubt they expected Christ to return within 3.5 years of the Temple being destroyed by Titus. But the honest to God truth is... Jesus didn't return. They were mistaken.

Didn't "return"? You mean like YOU believe He should return, right? So, the Apostles that were taught personally by Jesus were "mistaken", but you know what they did not? Hmm...are you sure of that?

I believe the Bible itself confirms that Jesus did in fact "come again" during the 70AD siege of Jerusalem and her Temple. Consider this:

The Comings of God

Question: Jesus said He would come again to bring judgment against those who rebelled against His New Covenant. How is this “coming” to take place and when is it to happen?

Answer: These questions can be answered by looking at Old Testament examples of God “coming” in judgment. The Old Testament “comings” include: (1) judgment due to following false gods and not keeping God’s covenant. (2) a specific generation said to receive this judgment. (3) a heathen army acting as God’s sword of vengeance. This criterion is also found in the New Testament “coming” of Jesus Christ. By comparing these Old and New Testament accounts, I propose that Jesus did “come again” during His generation, and did so in exactly the same manner as He did in the Old Testament.

One of these “comings” is found in Nebuchadnezzar’s conquering of Judah (see Jer 25:8-13). The Bible describes the King of Babylon as God’s “servant” and as His agent of judgment (see Jer 43:10). In this account, God is described as the One bringing the judgment. He did this through Nebuchadnezzar. His judgment was to come against a specifically named generation and was done by using the Babylonian army[1]. Just like this 586 BC “coming,” Jesus also pronounced judgment against a generation who followed false gods and disobeyed His covenant. Regard this generation, Jesus said He would come and destroy their city, burn their temple, and scatter their remnant throughout the known world.

We first see the warning of this “coming” when John the Baptist asked, “O GENERATION of vipers, who hath WARNED YOU TO FLEE FROM THE WRATH TO COME?” (Mat 3:7-12). Notice, “the wrath TO COME.” This would make no sense if it was for a generation 2,000 plus years later. So it is evident John was warning that generation of his day. This warning was reiterated on the Day of Pentecost when Peter warned: “save yourselves from THIS untoward GENERATION” (Act 2:40). Peter singled out that generation then as being more wicked because he knew it was the generation that would see God “coming” in judgment. Jesus also singled out this same generation as being the one to receive His coming judgment when He said, “Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED” (Mat 24:34). That First Century generation being the one chosen to see Jesus’ coming in judgment is also found in other passages[2].

The disciples expected the same type “coming” as found in the Old Testament, and just like those “comings” literally mentioned a specific generation, the New Testament believers expected the time language for their New Testament “coming” to be taken literally also. The Bible prophesied a three and one-half year (42 month/1260 day) siege against Jerusalem. In 66 AD Roman Emperor Nero commanded the destruction of Jerusalem and her temple. Titus began this around April, 70 AD. This was forty years (one generation) to the week from the crucifixion of Christ. The Temple was burnt August 10, 70 AD (the Jewish Ninth of AV, which is the exact day and month on which Babylon burnt Solomon’s Temple in 586 BC). The Roman army ended the Jewish resistance on September 26, 70 AD, thus fulfilling God’s prophesied judgment.

The Old Testament plainly describes an invisible God bringing judgment against Jerusalem and her temple through a heathen army[3]. Thus, it should not be considered unbiblical to believe a similar “coming” in the New Testament. The Bible clearly prophesied the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and her temple. This “coming” was done exactly like those in the Old Testament, which is an invisible God using a heathen army to bring judgment against His people’s rebellion.

Quote:
1. Jer 2:31, Jer 4:1-31, Jer 7:29, Jer 21:1-6, Jer 22:1-7, Jer 22:25-26, Jer 27:5-6; 2 Chr 36:15-20; Ezr 5:12; 2 Kings 24:18-20; 2 Kings 25:1-2
2. Mat 12:39-42, Mat 23:29-38; Mark 8:38, Mark 13:30; Luk 3:7, Luk 11:29-32, Luk 11:50-51, Luk 17:25, Luk 21:32; Heb 10:25, Heb 10:37; 1 Cor 10:11; 1 The 2:14-16
3. Mat 24:1-34; Mark 13; Luke 21