Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

everyone sees Rome as being the beast
* first century saints see Imperial Rome
* Reformation saints see The Roman Church
* most people today see a revived empire.

it seems like figuring this out is key.

First century church was persecuted by the Judean religion they were once a part of. The Apostle Paul was protected by his status in Imperial Rome. Because he was by his name Paulos part of an Empirical Roman Patrician family as Yohanna Marcus was. Could be one of the reasons they were at odds with each other. Mystery Babylon had the blood of the prophets and the saints. We tend to see saints ONLY as church members. The saints here are OTs, not just NTs.

Keep in mind that the Reformation (like ex-Apostolic Pentecostals) had axes to grind. Reformation wanted to fit the Roman Catholic Church into the book of Revelation. You will find this throughout church history, any enemy of any group gets wedged into the book of Revelation. Obama lost his antichrist position and Donald Trump had to pick up the baton. Interpreting the book of Revelation through current events have been happening since the day one of Revelation's publishing.

People today? See it as the revived Roman Empire? You mean like Mussolini? People today wouldn't know what a revived Roman Empire would look like. Sir John Bagot Glubb's book Fate of Empires is a good explanations of any world empire. Nebuchadnezzar's image wasn't an outline of empires since Babylon. Because then the image is missing empires who rose and fell since Babylon. The empires of the image had one thing in common. They all held power over Judea through occupation. Until you get to feet which has the potters clay baked with Roman Iron. Only time we see that going on is when the religious Judeans threaten a Roman official with "If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar." Which is complete with the Judean priestcraft leadership proclamation of "We have no king but Caesar,"

You have to keep this in its Judaic confines, and stop dragging it over to Mom's apple pie, baseball, and Chevrolet. It was written to an ancient people for their situations, which they understood better then we. It was written to them, and it benefits us now.

The flaming sword has been removed and we have access to Eden.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by JoeBandy

Good grief! Another issue we agree on. Hold On folks a storm is brewing!! LOL!!

Lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

everyone sees Rome as being the beast
* first century saints see Imperial Rome
* Reformation saints see The Roman Church
* most people today see a revived empire.

it seems like figuring this out is key.

I believe that Revelation was written in a way that serves all three purposes. It gave faith and hope to the first century saints to truly did believe they were quite possibly living through the end times. But, they weren't. Throughout Christian history, after the rise of the Roman Catholic Church and the Holy Roman Empire, Revelation gave faith and hope to those precious saints suffering under Catholic persecution, and they too truly believed that they were seeing the end time upon them. But, they weren't. And today, it gives us faith and hope in light of increasing globalization and religious extremism and persecution around the globe. We too believe that we might very well be in the end times. However, we don't know. Maybe we are, maybe we aren't. The unfolding of the Great Tribulation may very well be within our lifetimes. Or... it may be generations away. We don't know.

But the purpose of the Revelation is served. It will continue to give faith and hope to the church of Christ up until that very hour when Christ returns and subdues the kingdoms of this world and establishes His Kingdom.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe that Revelation was written in a way that serves all three purposes. It gave faith and hope to the first century saints to truly did believe they were quite possibly living through the end times. But, they weren't. Throughout Christian history, after the rise of the Roman Catholic Church and the Holy Roman Empire, Revelation gave faith and hope to those precious saints suffering under Catholic persecution, and they too truly believed that they were seeing the end time upon them. But, they weren't. And today, it gives us faith and hope in light of increasing globalization and religious extremism and persecution around the globe. We too believe that we might very well be in the end times. However, we don't know. Maybe we are, maybe we aren't. The unfolding of the Great Tribulation may very well be within our lifetimes. Or... it may be generations away. We don't know.

But the purpose of the Revelation is served. It will continue to give faith and hope to the church of Christ up until that very hour when Christ returns and subdues the kingdoms of this world and establishes His Kingdom.

Awesome!

Here's what churchanity teaches you. The book of the Revelation is a carrot on a stick. Everyone chasing their ecclesiastical tails, and therefore it's all up in the air for you. Imagine, a book which is to give a revelation of the love story of Christ and His bride has been reduced to a story concerning destruction?

So much in fact that the very word Apocalypse lost its meaning. It no longer means to reveal, but it means to people "today" as utter destruction. Well, we also live in a culture where gay no longer means cheerful. But means homosexual?

Good grief.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Awesome!

Here's what churchanity teaches you. The book of the Revelation is a carrot on a stick. Everyone before you chased their ecclesiastical tails, and therefore it's all up in the air for you. Imagine, a book which is to give a revelation of the love story of Christ and His bride has been reduced to a story concerning destruction?

So much in fact that the very word Apocalypse lost its meaning. It no longer means to reveal, but it means to people "today" as utter destruction. Well, we also live in a culture where gay no longer means cheerful. But means homosexual?

Good grief.

It's no different than looking backwards in time to an alleged fulfillment and drawing faith and hope in dire circumstances one might face today.

Futurism doesn't mean destruction to me. It means the days of this corrupt world are numbered and a glorious Kingdom will be established culminating in a glorious New Creation void of sin, sickness, aging, and death. And at this time we have the opportunity to turn to God and be a part of that Kingdom. It also means that Christ Himself will establish His Kingdom. There is no need to establish a theocracy on earth. We are but ambassadors telling the corrupt nations of this world to repent, for their days are numbered.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Revelation 1:3

we would rather have someone else to the heavy lifting for us. Waiting for someone to sit down and spoon feed us with some ecclesiastical fast food.

I have a question for you my Brother, how long did it take for you to transition from dispensationalism, to mid trib, to historicism, to PP?

and yes, I'm a and want to take advantage of the study of others

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I have a question for you my Brother, how long did it take for you to transition from dispensationalism, to mid trib, to historicism, to PP?

Never was a Dispensationalist, but was told to read and understand what was the hope of the OT Isrealies. So I was always Historic Post Trib. Then one day I got into a debate and had to consider what the present audience needed to understand. I had to fully understand that those who were listening to the Revelation, had to be the ones being the first recipients of the book's blessing.
Yet, we are literally convinced that for over 2,000 years and counting it wasn't meant for any of the readers? My lands it has a warning that no one is to misinterpret a book to readers over 2,000 years ago? But it was impossible for them to understand it? All this made me consider that where I was at in my privious eschatology needed to be reexamined. I didn't do this in a corner, I took my show on the road, and bounced it off of one and all. Sadly I found out that my dearest breathren didn't even know actually what they believed.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

and yes, I'm a and want to take advantage of the study of others

Yet, isn't that how we originally got in the pickle we were in?

One Bible and so many opinions? Jesus Christ and the Cross has to be the main focus of our final conclusion. Jesus told the thief, I tell you this day, you will be in Eden with Me. Awesome words for those who understand them.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Never was a Dispensationalist, but was told to read and understand what was the hope of the OT Isrealies. So I was always Historic Post Trib. Then one day I got into a debate and had to consider what the present audience needed to understand. I had to fully understand that those who were listening to the Revelation, had to be the ones being the first recipients of the book's blessing.
Yet, we are literally convinced that for over 2,000 years and counting it wasn't meant for any of the readers? My lands it has a warning that no one is to misinterpret a book to readers over 2,000 years ago? But it was impossible for them to understand it? All this made me consider that where I was at in my privious eschatology needed to be reexamined. I didn't do this in a corner, I took my show on the road, and bounced it off of one and all. Sadly I found out that my dearest breathren didn't even know actually what they believed.

In the midst of all the craziness of my life I'm slowly trying to take the same journey...in a corner for now until I get more sure of my understanding.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Never was a Dispensationalist, but was told to read and understand what was the hope of the OT Isrealies. So I was always Historic Post Trib. Then one day I got into a debate and had to consider what the present audience needed to understand. I had to fully understand that those who were listening to the Revelation, had to be the ones being the first recipients of the book's blessing.

The "seed of a woman" defeating the serpent was a prophecy of a virgin birth. This prophecy was fulfilled thousands of years after the time of its original recipients. Certainly every generation who understood the prophecy (to at least some degree) thought that it might be fulfilled in their day, though it wasn't. I don't see an issue.

Yet, we are literally convinced that for over 2,000 years and counting it wasn't meant for any of the readers? My lands it has a warning that no one is to misinterpret a book to readers over 2,000 years ago? But it was impossible for them to understand it? All this made me consider that where I was at in my privious eschatology needed to be reexamined. I didn't do this in a corner, I took my show on the road, and bounced it off of one and all. Sadly I found out that my dearest breathren didn't even know actually what they believed.

Where does the Revelation offer a warning to those who misinterpret it? I do know of a warning against tampering with the text:

Revelation 22:18-19 King James Version (KJV)
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Thus protecting the text from being tampered with for the sake of future generations was seen as an absolute necessity. So important in fact, tampering with the text could cost one their soul.