Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Yes. Because if what is written is altered, false doctrine is a certainty. However, if the text is untampered with, regardless of one's understanding or lack of understanding the actual text remains unadulterated and the truth is always within reach for those who seek it.

So, what's the issue? From what you said, you can teach Revelation with no problem, right?

Also, please reconcile why Peter said Paul's writings were hard to understand?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe that the Whore of Babylon would best be described as the nation state of modern Israel.

Israel was unfaithful while Moses was on the mountain receiving the law, they almost got nuked then.

[Aquila]

Many Preterists have made the case that it would make no sense to present an audience with a prophetic work declaring imminence if it did not pertain to them. But the same could be said about readers today. Why would God preserve a prophetic work declaring imminence for us to pour over if it absolutely doesn't pertain to us today?

The Revelation has given hope and assurance to nearly every generation of Christian in that they have perceived its fulfillment as being imminent. Think of it this way, those in the first century were Futurists. No doubt they expected Christ to return within 3.5 years of the Temple being destroyed by Titus. But the honest to God truth is... Jesus didn't return. They were mistaken. As the Catholic Church grew in power and the Holy Roman Empire persecuted true believers, no doubt they envisioned how the Catholic Church might be the terrible Beast foretold in Scripture. As time passed and literal fulfillments were lacking, the Reformers stretched out the time line to see if they could find shadows of fulfillment throughout history to justify their suspicions that the Papacy of the Catholic Church was the Beast. And they too were convinced. But as time passed and history marched on the Historicist expectation of Christ returning in the late 1700's to early 1900's never materialized. They too were mistaken. And as our world globalizes with weapons that can indeed burn a third of the planet easily, the possibility of global inflation, global war, and even a global Beast like power... our generation looks cautiously at what is developing around the world thinking we might indeed be living in times that will see the rise of the Beast. Might we be mistaken too? YES! But at some point, perhaps when saints are in spiritual slumber ignoring the watchmen on the wall, the prophecies will break forth with such force it will rock the slumbering body of Christ to its core. Those few who are alert and watching will indeed one day see the prophecy unfold right before their very eyes.

It has served a purpose for every generation. The purpose of giving Christians hope and faith in absolute victory over all earthly enemies... and the promise of a coming Millennium. And one day, it will indeed come to pass.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Excellent article. I'd steer clear of equating an exact 1000 years to a day mathematics to prophecy. I think the point is, time is inconsequential to God who is transcendent of time and space.

The point is, from God's perspective, the time is indeed at hand. And all generations should reckon the same since no man knows the day nor hour that the events will truly take place.

What events are you referring to?

How is it Revelation means to "reveal", yet you're saying "no man knows"?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

So, what's the issue? From what you said, you can teach Revelation with no problem, right?

All one can do is teach the Revelation as is. One is free to speculate as a watchman on the wall who thinks they might see movement in the shadows. No man should declare with any certainty that their understanding is absolutely correct. We need all hands on deck. Like an intelligence agency that presents multiple scenarios, we do well to look at prophecy from every angle. I know brothers who firmly believe in keeping an eye on the EU for the emergence of the Beast. I've got my eyes on the Islamic State and the religious fervor among the Muslims regarding their long expected al-Mahdi. Others are keeping their eyes on the United States and the ten FEMA response regions. Others have an eye on the UN. Others are still keeping an eye on the Papacy. We're all on the same team and working to keep the body abreast of possible alignments in multiple places. We're a Kingdom, and eschatology is the science & strategy of the war room. I welcome all logical possibilities and their consideration.

But I'll be honest. Preterism bothers me in that it insists that Satan is bound. Anyone who has ever worked with deliverance ministry, spiritual warfare, and who might simply watch the nightly news can testify that Satan is indeed not bound. And if events like the plague, the Great Depression, WWI, WWII, the Holocaust, dropping the atom bomb on Japan, Vietnam, and 9/11 is taking place during the Millennium, this Millennium sucks. In fact, if this is the Millennium, I'd be hesitant to see the New Creation.

Also, please reconcile why Peter said Paul's writings were hard to understand?

Because Peter, who was the preeminent teacher of the Jewish believers understood that Paul's understanding of Grace would be difficult for His Jewish readers to understand. The issue isn't one of prophecy, but rather the Law and its relationship to Grace.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Israel was unfaithful while Moses was on the mountain receiving the law, they almost got nuked then.

Yep. And even the modern nation state of Israel continues in rebellion against God and His Christ. I see value in defending Jewish people from persecution and the forces that would eradicate them. However, I don't see any value in glorifying the modern nation state of Israel.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

What events are you referring to?

How is it Revelation means to "reveal", yet you're saying "no man knows"?

It reveals that the wickedness we endure in this world will be judged, Christ will return, and the Messianic Kingdom will be stablished. And after this, it reveals a New Creation. And so we wait and pray in loving expectancy for our Deliverer to arrive.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Revelation 1:3

Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who understand, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is close.

The writer of this book penned these words of blessing to people who would understand. What they had going for them is that they were closer to the issues than we are. They were living at a time when people understood the language,understood the times, were taught (some of them) by actual apostles who were with Christ. They were Diaspora Judeans who already had for hundreds of years been reading an OT in Greek so the Greek Revelation of Christ wasn't hard for them to understand. We on the other hand are on the other end of the spectrum. We have been indoctrinated by the Irvin Baxter Jrs and the Tim Lahayes of the world, We have been Charles Larkined to death. We have been told time and time again that the events in the book of Revelation are pointing to every world dictator or president this country had an issue with. Because instead of studying out the Old Testament, and trying to see what the tribes were actually waiting for, we would rather have someone else to the heavy lifting for us. Waiting for someone to sit down and spoon feed us with some ecclesiastical fast food.

Answer this, why are the first century A.D. readers told to understand and solve the gematria numerals of the beast? They are told it's a man, and for them to figure out his name he obviously had to be living in their time. Why? because the question is being posed to "them"

Wisdom is needed here. Let the one with understanding solve the meaning of the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is 666.

If this book of the Bible was enigmatic, this verse we are specifically told wasn't.

Especially since it is pointed to the original readers who needed to have the wisdom, and through that gain understanding. Folks please take into consideration that you are reading manuscripts which date back to the Bronze age. The book of Revelation doesn't stand alone, isn't interpreted by the New Testament alone. You need to know the OT, with the prophets. Understand that the OT Hebrews weren't awaiting Azusa Street.

Good post!

[Aquila]

According to the Preterist's position on Revelation 20, we are currently in the Millennium. This would also mean that we are currently living in the time known as The Resurrection, would it not? Can a Preterist please explain the nature of The Resurrection, since according to Preterist logic, we are living in it?

Revelation 20:4-6 (ESV)
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Are there any Preterists willing to comment on this?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Many Preterists have made the case that it would make no sense to present an audience with a prophetic work declaring imminence if it did not pertain to them. But the same could be said about readers today. Why would God preserve a prophetic work declaring imminence for us to pour over if it absolutely doesn't pertain to us today?

The Revelation has given hope and assurance to nearly every generation of Christian in that they have perceived its fulfillment as being imminent. Think of it this way, those in the first century were Futurists. No doubt they expected Christ to return within 3.5 years of the Temple being destroyed by Titus. But the honest to God truth is... Jesus didn't return. They were mistaken.

Didn't "return"? You mean like YOU believe He should return, right? So, the Apostles that were taught personally by Jesus were "mistaken", but you know what they did not? Hmm...are you sure of that?

I believe the Bible itself confirms that Jesus did in fact "come again" during the 70AD siege of Jerusalem and her Temple. Consider this:

The Comings of God

Question: Jesus said He would come again to bring judgment against those who rebelled against His New Covenant. How is this “coming” to take place and when is it to happen?

Answer: These questions can be answered by looking at Old Testament examples of God “coming” in judgment. The Old Testament “comings” include: (1) judgment due to following false gods and not keeping God’s covenant. (2) a specific generation said to receive this judgment. (3) a heathen army acting as God’s sword of vengeance. This criterion is also found in the New Testament “coming” of Jesus Christ. By comparing these Old and New Testament accounts, I propose that Jesus did “come again” during His generation, and did so in exactly the same manner as He did in the Old Testament.

One of these “comings” is found in Nebuchadnezzar’s conquering of Judah (see Jer 25:8-13). The Bible describes the King of Babylon as God’s “servant” and as His agent of judgment (see Jer 43:10). In this account, God is described as the One bringing the judgment. He did this through Nebuchadnezzar. His judgment was to come against a specifically named generation and was done by using the Babylonian army[1]. Just like this 586 BC “coming,” Jesus also pronounced judgment against a generation who followed false gods and disobeyed His covenant. Regard this generation, Jesus said He would come and destroy their city, burn their temple, and scatter their remnant throughout the known world.

We first see the warning of this “coming” when John the Baptist asked, “O GENERATION of vipers, who hath WARNED YOU TO FLEE FROM THE WRATH TO COME?” (Mat 3:7-12). Notice, “the wrath TO COME.” This would make no sense if it was for a generation 2,000 plus years later. So it is evident John was warning that generation of his day. This warning was reiterated on the Day of Pentecost when Peter warned: “save yourselves from THIS untoward GENERATION” (Act 2:40). Peter singled out that generation then as being more wicked because he knew it was the generation that would see God “coming” in judgment. Jesus also singled out this same generation as being the one to receive His coming judgment when He said, “Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED” (Mat 24:34). That First Century generation being the one chosen to see Jesus’ coming in judgment is also found in other passages[2].

The disciples expected the same type “coming” as found in the Old Testament, and just like those “comings” literally mentioned a specific generation, the New Testament believers expected the time language for their New Testament “coming” to be taken literally also. The Bible prophesied a three and one-half year (42 month/1260 day) siege against Jerusalem. In 66 AD Roman Emperor Nero commanded the destruction of Jerusalem and her temple. Titus began this around April, 70 AD. This was forty years (one generation) to the week from the crucifixion of Christ. The Temple was burnt August 10, 70 AD (the Jewish Ninth of AV, which is the exact day and month on which Babylon burnt Solomon’s Temple in 586 BC). The Roman army ended the Jewish resistance on September 26, 70 AD, thus fulfilling God’s prophesied judgment.

The Old Testament plainly describes an invisible God bringing judgment against Jerusalem and her temple through a heathen army[3]. Thus, it should not be considered unbiblical to believe a similar “coming” in the New Testament. The Bible clearly prophesied the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and her temple. This “coming” was done exactly like those in the Old Testament, which is an invisible God using a heathen army to bring judgment against His people’s rebellion.

Quote:
1. Jer 2:31, Jer 4:1-31, Jer 7:29, Jer 21:1-6, Jer 22:1-7, Jer 22:25-26, Jer 27:5-6; 2 Chr 36:15-20; Ezr 5:12; 2 Kings 24:18-20; 2 Kings 25:1-2
2. Mat 12:39-42, Mat 23:29-38; Mark 8:38, Mark 13:30; Luk 3:7, Luk 11:29-32, Luk 11:50-51, Luk 17:25, Luk 21:32; Heb 10:25, Heb 10:37; 1 Cor 10:11; 1 The 2:14-16
3. Mat 24:1-34; Mark 13; Luke 21