Submission? Or Power and Control?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by ILG

Okay, no, that isn't wrong-for real sin. But they set this foundation for a woman cutting her hair. Do you think that is right?

I haven't read the book (and honestly don't intend to) so I can't even say what the book is about. Speaking strictly about hair issues, if one believes cutting hair is an abominable sin, it only makes sense to establish first of all that sin = death in the lake of fire.

I don't get upset if someone is consistently wrong. If you told me everything I believe is going to send me to hell for eternity, I am not going to take umbrage at how "uncharitable" your presentation was because it "makes me uncomfortable" or because "you are trying to scare me". I just look at "is this data scripturally accurate, or not" and take it from there. If a person is being hypocritical, trying to scare me while simultaneously complaining about other people's scare tactics, I may point it out, or I may just move on and not waste time with an irrational twit.

Not saying you are being an irrational twit. Just want to be clear on that.

As for hair cutting being a damnable sin, I think sisters need to worry more about getting their glory under wraps. Yes, that was a pun.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Esaias

No. He is talking about being covered or not, and then says being uncovered is the same as being shaven.

Agree that the passage is saying this.

Out of 16 verses in his teaching, Paul only mentions a man's hair once, saying nature teaches us long hair on a man is no good. Therefore, there is NOT a "strong emphasis" on men having short hair. In fact, there is no "strong emphasis" on hair at all except that a woman praying uncovered is as spiritually shameful as a woman having her hair shaved or shorn off is naturally shameful.

More than "no good" - "Shame" is a bit more colorful, meaning as you know, "dishonour, ignominy/public shame or disgrace, disgrace". A shame in the view of the public is pretty strong, IMO.

To bring the man in as an example on hair, after verses 3-12 in I Cor. 11, seems a bit on the side of strong emphasis. Or, at least, a big deal, IMO.

Historically, women did not cut or trim their hair at all, except for high society "fashionable" types in the medieval-renaissance period who took to shaving their foreheads and dyeing their hair red, blue, green, purple, etc.

I think they trimmed it, at least around the face, bangs, etc., from what I have seen, leaving the back long.

Ran into a cute, elderly woman coming out of the grocery store when my daughter was around 7 years old. She said, "Oh, she is so pretty. You know, we used to wear dresses and wore our hair long when I was a youngster. My children made me cut mine because it is too hard to take care of." Thought that was interesting.

I'm sorry. I try to forget ever having heard her "teaching".

I don't normally ever listen to her, just happened to have viewed that session for some reason. Probably out of curiosity. I will say that I read her book, "7 Things that Steal Your Joy" and have never felt such peace at the end of any book I have ever read, besides the Bible, of course. That isn't an endorsement, just an observation. I was rather surprised by that.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I haven't read the book (and honestly don't intend to) so I can't even say what the book is about. Speaking strictly about hair issues, if one believes cutting hair is an abominable sin, it only makes sense to establish first of all that sin = death in the lake of fire.

I don't get upset if someone is consistently wrong. If you told me everything I believe is going to send me to hell for eternity, I am not going to take umbrage at how "uncharitable" your presentation was because it "makes me uncomfortable" or because "you are trying to scare me". I just look at "is this data scripturally accurate, or not" and take it from there. If a person is being hypocritical, trying to scare me while simultaneously complaining about other people's scare tactics, I may point it out, or I may just move on and not waste time with an irrational twit.

Not saying you are being an irrational twit. Just want to be clear on that.

As for hair cutting being a damnable sin, I think sisters need to worry more about getting their glory under wraps. Yes, that was a pun.

The only thing that really concerns me is when teachings hurt people. You didn't outright answer my question though. Are women who cut their hair sinning in your opinion?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by ILG

If a woman be not covered-let her also be shorn.........shorn is like a military haircut. Shaved is completely removed.

Agreed!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Esaias

As for hair cutting being a damnable sin, I think sisters need to worry more about getting their glory under wraps. Yes, that was a pun.

I am thinking that when I really wanted to know God, I said, "God, I have seen the rain, hail, snow, etc. There has to be something in this Book that I am missing, because I know that you are a powerful God."

Shortly thereafter, a woman started working with me and brought me into the UPC. Of all my years of praying, fasting and seeking God, He has NEVER told me to put bonnet or scarf on my head. He has told me a good many other things.

So, I have to think about that after 32 years, He would have showed that to me.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I am thinking that when I really wanted to know God, I said, "God, I have seen the rain, hail, snow, etc. There has to be something in this Book that I am missing, because I know that you are a powerful God."

Shortly thereafter, a woman started working with me and brought me into the UPC. Of all my years of praying, fasting and seeking God, He has NEVER told me to put bonnet or scarf on my head. He has told me a good many other things.

So, I have to think about that after 32 years, He would have showed that to me.

He did, in 1 Corinthians 11. Whether you accept it or not, it's there. We go by the Word, not just some internal feeling.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by ILG

The only thing that really concerns me is when teachings hurt people. You didn't outright answer my question though. Are women who cut their hair sinning in your opinion?

Depends on the motivation. A woman who cut her hair because she needed surgery on her skull is one thing. But a woman who cut her hair because she's gonna do what she wants and who cares what the Bible says about it has got bigger problems than scissors.

[houston]

I don't want to seem to be contentious, but how do we know that Paul is not addressing a cultural issue?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Did I say that? No, I didn't. Never mind.

It is sadly amusing. That reading the writings of ex-fill in the space, one walks away from it as they only were given a shopping list. I guess that is why all the books from UPCI preachers get filleted. Instead of dealing with what the scripture is trying to convey. Will a man go to hell if he "fill in the blank"

When I first came around "Christians" they were the flavor without any kind of standards. I found out quick it wasn't a shirt and tie that was the problem. Or long uncut hair. You see if a wolf scares the sheep that is normal. But if a sheep troubles the flock, then we have something unnatural going on. But long uncut hair on a woman, and a dress down to the floor is so easy to see. That's why it gets impaled on a spike every so often. But what about the ILGs of the world? You look at them and they look like the rest of the herd. No one takes notice, they say they're Christian. Butter melts in their mouth?

The issue no matter what you do on the outside is what is on the inside. Jesus loved the way the pharisees dressed. He said they appear beautiful on the outside, but inside they were rotting corpses. Hair cut to hell? How about the secret passages to the mind where we can't see? Where more people are gutted, hated, maligned, cursed, over and over in the mind. While sweet fragrant Jesus permeates from the lips. Happens in both camps. But those who drop the standards just don't have the stand apart look any more.

Therefore they think it's all good.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by houston

I don't want to seem to be contentious, but how do we know that Paul is not addressing a cultural issue?

He was, a Judean cultural issue which he was bringing to a Hellenized empire
The lion share of the New Testament is an attempt to bring Judean culture to the entire known empire. To this day we are still spreading that over 2,000 year old culture to the world.