Church Government (a collective body)

returnman · #1 08-08-2017, 10:32 AM

The church I attend was left with a generous gift of around 260,000 dollars recently. The way it was received and distributed was decided by the 5 elders and done so very wisely. Made me think of the many apostolic churches and how the one man being the pastor would have had 95-100% of say so as to how this would have been handled. I would think the majority would have done it without any personal gain but what a temptation to put into a single authority.

jediwill83 · #2 08-08-2017, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by returnman

The church I attend was left with a generous gift of around 260,000 dollars recently. The way it was received and distributed was decided by the 5 elders and done so very wisely. Made me think of the many apostolic churches and how the one man being the pastor would have had 95-100% of say so as to how this would have been handled. I would think the majority would have done it without any personal gain but what a temptation to put into a single authority.

It would all depend on whose kingdom the pastor in question is committed to building...his own, or Gods.

n david · #3 08-08-2017, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by returnman

The church I attend was left with a generous gift of around 260,000 dollars recently. The way it was received and distributed was decided by the 5 elders and done so very wisely. Made me think of the many apostolic churches and how the one man being the pastor would have had 95-100% of say so as to how this would have been handled. I would think the majority would have done it without any personal gain but what a temptation to put into a single authority.

It also depends on how the donation was given. Both donors and church Pastors should be aware of the law when giving/receiving donations. For the donors, it matters how they give if they wish to receive a tax deduction for their donation. For the church and Pastor, it matters how it was given, because one donation could be used "as needed" by the church/Pastor and another could result in civil fraud if not used for its stated purpose.

If a donor gives a "restricted" offering, the church Pastor cannot deviate from what the money was intended to fund. It is against the law, and the church and Pastor could be sued for civil fraud. The plus side for the donor is they can rest assured the money will be used as intended. The negative is the donor cannot receive a tax deduction for the donation.

If a donor gives a general donation, it can be used as needed and the donor will be able to receive a tax deduction.

TakingDominion · #4 08-08-2017, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by returnman

The church I attend was left with a generous gift of around 260,000 dollars recently. The way it was received and distributed was decided by the 5 elders and done so very wisely. Made me think of the many apostolic churches and how the one man being the pastor would have had 95-100% of say so as to how this would have been handled. I would think the majority would have done it without any personal gain but what a temptation to put into a single authority.

Accountability and transparency are two things, unfortunately missing from most Apostolic churches. This is one area on which I think the movement could learn from mainstream Christianity. One man should not be in charge of the church. Even the best pastors need a council of elder that he is accountable to.

returnman · #5 08-08-2017, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n david

It also depends on how the donation was given. Both donors and church Pastors should be aware of the law when giving/receiving donations. For the donors, it matters how they give if they wish to receive a tax deduction for their donation. For the church and Pastor, it matters how it was given, because one donation could be used "as needed" by the church/Pastor and another could result in civil fraud if not used for its stated purpose.

If a donor gives a "restricted" offering, the church Pastor cannot deviate from what the money was intended to fund. It is against the law, and the church and Pastor could be sued for civil fraud. The plus side for the donor is they can rest assured the money will be used as intended. The negative is the donor cannot receive a tax deduction for the donation.

If a donor gives a general donation, it can be used as needed and the donor will be able to receive a tax deduction.

It was explained to me, second hand because I was not there for the official announcement. The donor(s) are deceased and it was in a 2 year holding. Their desire was to see the youth dept benefit from it. The decision was to pay off the bulk of a loan. We had a major addition a couple of years ago. Then the church will pay back into on a monthly basis the amount at a reduced interest free amount. This will allow the hiring of a full time youth minister. Yes, full time. Paid. Sounds weird to some I would imagine.

n david · #6 08-08-2017, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by returnman

It was explained to me, second hand because I was not there for the official announcement. The donor(s) are deceased and it was in a 2 year holding. Their desire was to see the youth dept benefit from it. The decision was to pay off the bulk of a loan. We had a major addition a couple of years ago. Then the church will pay back into on a monthly basis the amount at a reduced interest free amount. This will allow the hiring of a full time youth minister. Yes, full time. Paid. Sounds weird to some I would imagine.

How large is the church and youth group? Is this a UPC church?

Scott Pitta · #7 08-08-2017, 01:41 PM

As a retired church treasurer, I find this post interesting.

Financial controls make for a peaceful church. They nurture confidence in leadership. They minimize risk.

Full public financial disclosure in the form of an annual financial report that details how every dollar is spent protects the church from the chaos of fiscal blunders and corruption.

We had monthly board meetings where we reviewed the monthly budget. Every dollar that came in and went out was reviewed.

Church employees, including the pastor, were paid as employees. Wages and benefits were determined by the board. Church checks required 2 signatures. One of those persons was not the pastor.

Real estate sales or purchases were voted on by the members of the church. The voting membership roster was regularly updated.

If a large donation was made when I was a treasurer, we would have reduced debt and liked at the upcoming maintenance projects.

But it all depends on the wishes of the giver. Designated gifts are, frankly, a mixed blessing at best. Figuring out how to use gifts that are not really needed can be problematic.

returnman · #8 08-08-2017, 01:41 PM

Less than 200, youth group, 20-30 my guess. Not UPC. I was told they will be paid between 30-35 thousand a year. The last full time minister was paid around 90 a year so I assume the new one is paid about the same. We also have a part time paid elderly minister that tends to issues of the same. Amazing what you can do with a membership of this size when following a biblical principal.

returnman · #9 08-08-2017, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

As a retired church treasurer, I find this post interesting.

Financial controls make for a peaceful church. They nurture confidence in leadership. They minimize risk.

Full public financial disclosure in the form of an annual financial report that details how every dollar is spent protects the church from the chaos of fiscal blunders and corruption.

We had monthly board meetings where we reviewed the monthly budget. Every dollar that came in and went out was reviewed.

Church employees, including the pastor, were paid as employees. Wages and benefits were determined by the board. Church checks required 2 signatures. One of those persons was not the pastor.

Real estate sales or purchases were voted on by the members of the church. The voting membership roster was regularly updated.

If a large donation was made when I was a treasurer, we would have reduced debt and liked at the upcoming maintenance projects.

But it all depends on the wishes of the giver. Designated gifts are, frankly, a mixed blessing at best. Figuring out how to use gifts that are not really needed can be problematic.

Totally agree. I never heard the tithe amount disclosed at a business meeting in an apostolic/UPC church. I asked once and was told "we decided a long time ago to not disclose that". HUH?

TakingDominion · #10 08-08-2017, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by returnman

Totally agree. I never heard the tithe amount disclosed at a business meeting in an apostolic/UPC church. I asked once and was told "we decided a long time ago to not disclose that". HUH?

knowledge is power...

Too many apostolic churches treat the finances like a tightly guarded secret, which allows bitterness to fester and grow. If we don't have anything to hide, why are we hiding? If we do have something to hide, well then we have bigger problems...

I believe wholly in an annual business meeting for the voting members where the finances are disclosed in an open and honest manner.