can every...

[Esaias]

If we bring the third world to western standards, what would it look like?

Better healthcare, better jobs, nicer tvs...

Bigger debts, more clients for Big Pharma, porn on demand, bigger grocery stores but fewer family farms, more food laced with higher tech poisons, McDonald's fast food, fast food religion, fancy hairdos, nicer suits, fewer children, LGBTQABCXYZ rights, everybody glued to their smart phone, spyware for everyone, more abortion, bigger government, more police state...

In other words, the whole world would get to enjoy what we have in America. Not sure that's what they really need, though.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

It was a good post up to the social justice warrior part.

I know. We can't have any of that "social justice" stuff.

I found the Holman Bible Dictionary to have the most comprehensive definition of biblical justice. I'll share it here for those who might be interested:

Holman Bible Dictionary

Justice

The order God seeks to reestablish in His creation where all people receive the benefits of life with Him. As love is for the New Testament, so justice is the central ethical idea of the Old Testament. The frequency of justice is sometimes missed by the reader due to a failure to realize that the wide range of the Hebrew word mishpat , particularly in passages that deal with the material and social necessities of life.

Nature of justice Justice has two major aspects. First, it is the standard by which penalties are assigned for breaking the obligations of the society. Second, justice is the standard by which the advantages of social life are handed out, including material goods, rights of participation, opportunities, and liberties. It is the standard for both punishment and benefits and thus can be spoken of as a plumb line. “I shall use justice as a plumb-line, and righteousness as a plummet” (Isaiah 28:17 , REB).

Often people think of justice in the Bible only in the first sense as God's wrath on evil. This aspect of justice indeed is present, such as the judgment mentioned in John 3:19 . Often more vivid words like “wrath” are used to describe punitive justice (Romans 1:18 ).

Justice in the Bible very frequently also deals with benefits. Cultures differ widely in determining the basis by which the benefits are to be justly distributed. For some it is by birth and nobility. For others the basis is might or ability or merit. Or it might simply be whatever is the law or whatever has been established by contracts. The Bible takes another possibility. Benefits are distributed according to need. Justice then is very close to love and grace. God “executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing” (Deuteronomy 10:18 , NRSV; compare Hosea 10:12 ; Isaiah 30:18 ).

Various needy groups are the recipients of justice. These groups include widows, orphans, resident aliens (also called “sojourners” or “strangers”), wage earners, the poor, and prisoners, slaves, and the sick (Job 29:12-17 ; Psalm 146:7-9 ; Malachi 3:5 ). Each of these groups has specific needs which keep its members from being able to participate in aspects of the life of their community. Even life itself might be threatened. Justice involves meeting those needs. The forces which deprive people of what is basic for community life are condemned as oppression (Micah 2:2 ; Ecclesiastes 4:1 ). To oppress is to use power for one's own advantage in depriving others of their basic rights in the community (see Mark 12:40 ). To do justice is to correct that abuse and to meet those needs (Isaiah 1:17 ). Injustice is depriving others of their basic needs or failing to correct matters when those rights are not met (Jeremiah 5:28 ; Job 29:12-17 ). Injustice is either a sin of commission or of omission.

The content of justice, the benefits which are to be distributed as basic rights in the community, can be identified by observing what is at stake in the passages in which “justice,” “righteousness,” and “judgment” occur. The needs which are met include land (Ezekiel 45:6-9 ; compare Micah 2:2 ; Micah 4:4 ) and the means to produce from the land, such as draft animals and millstones (Deuteronomy 22:1-4 ; Deuteronomy 24:6 ). These productive concerns are basic to securing other essential needs and thus avoiding dependency; thus the millstone is called the “life” of the person (Deuteronomy 24:6 ). Other needs are those essential for mere physical existence and well being: food (Deuteronomy 10:18 ; Psalm 146:7 ), clothing (Deuteronomy 24:13 ), and shelter (Psalm 68:6 ; Job 8:6 ). Job 22:5-9 ,Job 22:5-9,22:23 ; Job 24:1-12 decries the injustice of depriving people of each one of these needs, which are material and economic. The equal protection of each person in civil and judicial procedures is represented in the demand for due process ( Deuteronomy 16:18-20 ). Freedom from bondage is comparable to not being “in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and lack of everything” (Deuteronomy 28:48 NRSV).

Justice presupposes God's intention for people to be in community. When people had become poor and weak with respect to the rest of the community, they were to be strengthened so that they could continue to be effective members of the community—living with them and beside them (Leviticus 25:35-36 ). Thus biblical justice restores people to community. By justice those who lacked the power and resources to participate in significant aspects of the community were to be strengthened so that they could. This concern in Leviticus 25:1 is illustrated by the provision of the year of Jubilee, in which at the end of the fifty year period land is restored to those who had lost it through sale or foreclosure of debts ( Leviticus 25:28 ). Thus they regained economic power and were brought back into the economic community. Similarly, interest on loans was prohibited (Leviticus 25:36 ) as a process which pulled people down, endangering their position in the community.

These legal provisions express a further characteristic of justice. Justice delivers; it does not merely relieve the immediate needs of those in dire straits (Psalm 76:9 ; Isaiah 45:8 ; Isaiah 58:11 ; Isaiah 62:1-2 ). Helping the needy means setting them back on their feet, giving a home, leading to prosperity, restoration, ending the oppression (Psalm 68:5-10 ; Psalm 10:15-16 ; compare 107; Psalm 113:7-9 ). Such thorough justice can be socially disruptive. In the Jubilee year as some receive back lands, others lose recently-acquired additional land. The advantage to some is a disadvantage to others. In some cases the two aspects of justice come together. In the act of restoration, those who were victims of justice receive benefits while their exploiters are punished (1 Samuel 2:7-10 ; compare Luke 1:51-53 ; Luke 6:20-26 ).

The source of justice As the sovereign Creator of the universe, God is just (Psalm 99:1-4 ; Genesis 18:25 ; Deuteronomy 32:4 ; Jeremiah 9:24 ), particularly as the defender of all the oppressed of the earth (Psalm 76:9 ; Psalm 103:6 ; Jeremiah 49:11 ). Justice thus is universal (Psalm 9:7-9 ) and applies to each covenant or dispensation. Jesus affirmed for His day the centrality of the Old Testament demand for justice (Matthew 23:23 ). Justice is the work of the New Testament people of God (James 1:27 ).

God's justice is not a distant external standard. It is the source of all human justice (Proverbs 29:26 ; 2Chronicles 19:6,2 Chronicles 19:9 ). Justice is grace received and grace shared (2 Corinthians 9:8-10 ).

The most prominent human agent of justice is the ruler. The king receives God's justice and is a channel for it (Psalm 72:1 ; compare Romans 13:1-2 ,Romans 13:1-2,13:4 ). There is not a distinction between a personal, voluntary justice and a legal, public justice. The same caring for the needy groups of the society is demanded of the ruler (Psalm 72:4 ; Ezekiel 34:4 ; Jeremiah 22:15-16 ). Such justice was also required of pagan rulers (Daniel 4:27 ; Proverbs 31:8-9 ).

Justice is also a central demand on all people who bear the name of God. Its claim is so basic that without it other central demands and provisions of God are not acceptable to God. Justice is required to be present with the sacrificial system (Amos 5:21-24 ; Micah 6:6-8 ; Isaiah 1:11-17 ; Matthew 5:23-24 ), fasting (Isaiah 58:1-10 ), tithing (Matthew 23:23 ), obedience to the other commandments (Matthew 19:16-21 ), or the presence of the Temple of God (Jeremiah 7:1-7 ).

Justice in salvation Apart from describing God's condemnation of sin, Paul used the language and meaning of justice to speak of personal salvation. “The righteousness of God” represents God in grace bringing into the community of God through faith in Christ those who had been outside of the people of God (particularly in Romans but compare also Ephesians 2:12-13 ). See Law; Government ; Poverty ; Righteousness ; Welfare.

Stephen Charles Mott

http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...j/justice.html

[Aquila]

I'm reminded of what was once said by Tony Campolo at conference event:

“I have three things I'd like to say today. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don't give a sh!t. What's worse is that you're more upset with the fact that I said sh!t than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night.”
― Tony Campolo

Yep, that's what we've become.

In fact, our hatred for social justice is so great, the majority of our responses are dedicated to feverishly trying to refute any notion that we have any social obligation beyond handing out a tract. Did you know that those who oppose social justice are Sodomites? Yep. Sodomites. A Sodomite not only has relations with his or her own kind (mankind with mankind or womankind with womankind), but they also only care about their own kind. In fact, a Sodomite could watch 30,000 children perish in the night from malnutrition and not feel obligated to make the world a better place for all. A Sodomite can sleep just fine and dream soundly at night knowing that the poor are dying of treatable sicknesses simply because they can't afford care. A Sodomite sees nothing wrong with a society that burdens the next generation with near crushing debt simply because they went to college to contribute something greater to society than menial labor.

You see, being a Sodomite is more than being homosexual. It also involves a worldview that is only concerned with self and one's immediate associations. Indeed, the root concern of the Sodomite is self. This is why they are so willing to give up relations with women and form families. That would require a high degree of selflessness to obligations than homosexuality does. And in our times, while many Christians may not celebrate the sin of homosexuality... they live according to a Sodomite philosophy of "me, myself, and mine". This was indeed a part of God's great indictment against Sodom. For the LORD said,

Ezekiel 16:48-50 King James Version (KJV)
48 As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.
49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

You see, being a Sodomite is about far more than one's sexuality. In fact, homosexuality is only a byproduct of the Sodomite's self-centered philosophy of life. As oppression advances in our society, perhaps it would be good if we examine ourselves closely and ask ourselves, "Am I a Sodomite?" And let us pray that if we find that we are... let us repent and become more concerned for our fellow man.

In America, things are divided down the middle between the Left and the Right. Interestingly enough, this is truly a trap of Satan. You see, Satan has injected the Sodomite lifestyle into the Left... and injected the Sodomite philosophy into the Right. And thus both are poisoned. And while the Left and the Right turn on one another...ripping an entire society apart with the ways of Sodom... he sits back and gleefully watches the action.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I know. We can't have any of that "social justice" stuff.

I found the Holman Bible Dictionary to have the most comprehensive definition of biblical justice. I'll share it here for those who might be interested:

Holman Bible Dictionary

Justice

The order God seeks to reestablish in His creation where all people receive the benefits of life with Him. As love is for the New Testament, so justice is the central ethical idea of the Old Testament. The frequency of justice is sometimes missed by the reader due to a failure to realize that the wide range of the Hebrew word mishpat , particularly in passages that deal with the material and social necessities of life.

Nature of justice Justice has two major aspects. First, it is the standard by which penalties are assigned for breaking the obligations of the society. Second, justice is the standard by which the advantages of social life are handed out, including material goods, rights of participation, opportunities, and liberties. It is the standard for both punishment and benefits and thus can be spoken of as a plumb line. “I shall use justice as a plumb-line, and righteousness as a plummet” (Isaiah 28:17 , REB).

Often people think of justice in the Bible only in the first sense as God's wrath on evil. This aspect of justice indeed is present, such as the judgment mentioned in John 3:19 . Often more vivid words like “wrath” are used to describe punitive justice (Romans 1:18 ).

Justice in the Bible very frequently also deals with benefits. Cultures differ widely in determining the basis by which the benefits are to be justly distributed. For some it is by birth and nobility. For others the basis is might or ability or merit. Or it might simply be whatever is the law or whatever has been established by contracts. The Bible takes another possibility. Benefits are distributed according to need. Justice then is very close to love and grace. God “executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing” (Deuteronomy 10:18 , NRSV; compare Hosea 10:12 ; Isaiah 30:18 ).

Various needy groups are the recipients of justice. These groups include widows, orphans, resident aliens (also called “sojourners” or “strangers”), wage earners, the poor, and prisoners, slaves, and the sick (Job 29:12-17 ; Psalm 146:7-9 ; Malachi 3:5 ). Each of these groups has specific needs which keep its members from being able to participate in aspects of the life of their community. Even life itself might be threatened. Justice involves meeting those needs. The forces which deprive people of what is basic for community life are condemned as oppression (Micah 2:2 ; Ecclesiastes 4:1 ). To oppress is to use power for one's own advantage in depriving others of their basic rights in the community (see Mark 12:40 ). To do justice is to correct that abuse and to meet those needs (Isaiah 1:17 ). Injustice is depriving others of their basic needs or failing to correct matters when those rights are not met (Jeremiah 5:28 ; Job 29:12-17 ). Injustice is either a sin of commission or of omission.

The content of justice, the benefits which are to be distributed as basic rights in the community, can be identified by observing what is at stake in the passages in which “justice,” “righteousness,” and “judgment” occur. The needs which are met include land (Ezekiel 45:6-9 ; compare Micah 2:2 ; Micah 4:4 ) and the means to produce from the land, such as draft animals and millstones (Deuteronomy 22:1-4 ; Deuteronomy 24:6 ). These productive concerns are basic to securing other essential needs and thus avoiding dependency; thus the millstone is called the “life” of the person (Deuteronomy 24:6 ). Other needs are those essential for mere physical existence and well being: food (Deuteronomy 10:18 ; Psalm 146:7 ), clothing (Deuteronomy 24:13 ), and shelter (Psalm 68:6 ; Job 8:6 ). Job 22:5-9 ,Job 22:5-9,22:23 ; Job 24:1-12 decries the injustice of depriving people of each one of these needs, which are material and economic. The equal protection of each person in civil and judicial procedures is represented in the demand for due process ( Deuteronomy 16:18-20 ). Freedom from bondage is comparable to not being “in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and lack of everything” (Deuteronomy 28:48 NRSV).

Justice presupposes God's intention for people to be in community. When people had become poor and weak with respect to the rest of the community, they were to be strengthened so that they could continue to be effective members of the community—living with them and beside them (Leviticus 25:35-36 ). Thus biblical justice restores people to community. By justice those who lacked the power and resources to participate in significant aspects of the community were to be strengthened so that they could. This concern in Leviticus 25:1 is illustrated by the provision of the year of Jubilee, in which at the end of the fifty year period land is restored to those who had lost it through sale or foreclosure of debts ( Leviticus 25:28 ). Thus they regained economic power and were brought back into the economic community. Similarly, interest on loans was prohibited (Leviticus 25:36 ) as a process which pulled people down, endangering their position in the community.

These legal provisions express a further characteristic of justice. Justice delivers; it does not merely relieve the immediate needs of those in dire straits (Psalm 76:9 ; Isaiah 45:8 ; Isaiah 58:11 ; Isaiah 62:1-2 ). Helping the needy means setting them back on their feet, giving a home, leading to prosperity, restoration, ending the oppression (Psalm 68:5-10 ; Psalm 10:15-16 ; compare 107; Psalm 113:7-9 ). Such thorough justice can be socially disruptive. In the Jubilee year as some receive back lands, others lose recently-acquired additional land. The advantage to some is a disadvantage to others. In some cases the two aspects of justice come together. In the act of restoration, those who were victims of justice receive benefits while their exploiters are punished (1 Samuel 2:7-10 ; compare Luke 1:51-53 ; Luke 6:20-26 ).

The source of justice As the sovereign Creator of the universe, God is just (Psalm 99:1-4 ; Genesis 18:25 ; Deuteronomy 32:4 ; Jeremiah 9:24 ), particularly as the defender of all the oppressed of the earth (Psalm 76:9 ; Psalm 103:6 ; Jeremiah 49:11 ). Justice thus is universal (Psalm 9:7-9 ) and applies to each covenant or dispensation. Jesus affirmed for His day the centrality of the Old Testament demand for justice (Matthew 23:23 ). Justice is the work of the New Testament people of God (James 1:27 ).

God's justice is not a distant external standard. It is the source of all human justice (Proverbs 29:26 ; 2Chronicles 19:6,2 Chronicles 19:9 ). Justice is grace received and grace shared (2 Corinthians 9:8-10 ).

The most prominent human agent of justice is the ruler. The king receives God's justice and is a channel for it (Psalm 72:1 ; compare Romans 13:1-2 ,Romans 13:1-2,13:4 ). There is not a distinction between a personal, voluntary justice and a legal, public justice. The same caring for the needy groups of the society is demanded of the ruler (Psalm 72:4 ; Ezekiel 34:4 ; Jeremiah 22:15-16 ). Such justice was also required of pagan rulers (Daniel 4:27 ; Proverbs 31:8-9 ).

Justice is also a central demand on all people who bear the name of God. Its claim is so basic that without it other central demands and provisions of God are not acceptable to God. Justice is required to be present with the sacrificial system (Amos 5:21-24 ; Micah 6:6-8 ; Isaiah 1:11-17 ; Matthew 5:23-24 ), fasting (Isaiah 58:1-10 ), tithing (Matthew 23:23 ), obedience to the other commandments (Matthew 19:16-21 ), or the presence of the Temple of God (Jeremiah 7:1-7 ).

Justice in salvation Apart from describing God's condemnation of sin, Paul used the language and meaning of justice to speak of personal salvation. “The righteousness of God” represents God in grace bringing into the community of God through faith in Christ those who had been outside of the people of God (particularly in Romans but compare also Ephesians 2:12-13 ). See Law; Government ; Poverty ; Righteousness ; Welfare.

Stephen Charles Mott

http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...j/justice.html

I was waiting for this post. Any time social justice is mentioned you post this.

Sorry, Stephen Charles Mott, the Justice of the Bible is not the social justice liberals preach.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'm reminded of what was once said by Tony Campolo at conference event:

“I have three things I'd like to say today. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don't give a sh!t. What's worse is that you're more upset with the fact that I said sh!t than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night.”
― Tony Campolo

Yep, that's what we've become.

In fact, our hatred for social justice is so great, the majority of our responses are dedicated to feverishly trying to refute any notion that we have any social obligation beyond handing out a tract. Did you know that those who oppose social justice are Sodomites? Yep. Sodomites. A Sodomite not only has relations with his or her own kind (mankind with mankind or womankind with womankind), but they also only care about their own kind. In fact, a Sodomite could watch 30,000 children perish in the night from malnutrition and not feel obligated to make the world a better place for all. A Sodomite can sleep just fine and dream soundly at night knowing that the poor are dying of treatable sicknesses simply because they can't afford care. A Sodomite sees nothing wrong with a society that burdens the next generation with near crushing debt simply because they went to college to contribute something greater to society than menial labor.

You see, being a Sodomite is more than being homosexual. It also involves a worldview that is only concerned with self and one's immediate associations. Indeed, the root concern of the Sodomite is self. This is why they are so willing to give up relations with women and form families. That would require a high degree of selflessness to obligations than homosexuality does. And in our times, while many Christians may not celebrate the sin of homosexuality... they live according to a Sodomite philosophy of "me, myself, and mine". This was indeed a part of God's great indictment against Sodom. For the LORD said,

Ezekiel 16:48-50 King James Version (KJV)
48 As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.
49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

You see, being a Sodomite is about far more than one's sexuality. In fact, homosexuality is only a byproduct of the Sodomite's self-centered philosophy of life. As oppression advances in our society, perhaps it would be good if we examine ourselves closely and ask ourselves, "Am I a Sodomite?" And let us pray that if we find that we are... let us repent and become more concerned for our fellow man.

In America, things are divided down the middle between the Left and the Right. Interestingly enough, this is truly a trap of Satan. You see, Satan has injected the Sodomite lifestyle into the Left... and injected the Sodomite philosophy into the Right. And thus both are poisoned. And while the Left and the Right turn on one another...ripping an entire society apart with the ways of Sodom... he sits back and gleefully watches the action.

I wouldn't take biblical advice from Tony Campolo. Just sayin.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

I was waiting for this post. Any time social justice is mentioned you post this.

I post it because I've found over and over again that some people have no clue that the Bible does indeed advocate for social justice. The Bible's social justice is largely focused on poverty and the sick.

Sorry, Stephen Charles Mott, the Justice of the Bible is not the social justice liberals preach.

Nothing Stephen Mott wrote is unbiblical. You can check the references. But you are right, the Bible's form of social justice isn't exactly what the liberals preach. The Bible's command towards social justice is focused on the widows, orphans, aliens, workers, the poor, prisoners, slaves, the sick, and the oppressed. Now, liberals expand upon the "oppressed" by including minorities, women, and the LGBTQXYZ community.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

I wouldn't take biblical advice from Tony Campolo. Just sayin.

I don't agree with Campolo theologically either. But his statement is dead on. You know very well that we could mention that 30,000 children died last night for lack of water and food and people would sigh and frown and think, "That's so sad. But let's not get into social justice or anything." But if I said just one four letter word... they'd be up in arms to run me out on a rail. While we both reject Campolo's theology... he's dead on concerning the apathy of so many in Western Evangelicalism and Fundamentalist churches.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by n david

I wouldn't take biblical advice from Tony Campolo. Just sayin.

Seriously.
I have always found that those who like using this type of device to get their point across, tend to have "pride" issues.
As in, "look how smart I am, I got you to ignore my point because I did something that offended you".
Also, his numbers were wrong.
And it is a very simplistic way to view the problem.
But back to Tony, himself.
You do know he believes that LGBTQXYZ couples should be admitted into the church.
And did a great job raising someone who is now preaching the gospel of secular humanism.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I don't agree with Campolo theologically either. But his statement is dead on. You know very well that we could mention that 30,000 children died last night for lack of water and food and people would sigh and frown and think, "That's so sad. But let's not get into social justice or anything." But if I said just one four letter word... they'd be up in arms to run me out on a rail. While we both reject Campolo's theology... he's dead on concerning the apathy of so many in Western Evangelicalism and Fundamentalist churches.

His statement is hyperbole.

But let's talk about the extreme example he gave: 30,000 people died from lack of food and water. That is indeed sad. We should do what we can to help those in need. But the focus of the church is not modern, liberal social justice.

It's not the job of the church to provide housing, employment, food, water, healthcare etc. The primary mission of the church is the Great Commission: Go and make disciples. Salvation is the primary mission of the church, not liberal social justice.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I post it because I've found over and over again that some people have no clue that the Bible does indeed advocate for social justice. The Bible's social justice is largely focused on poverty and the sick.

Nothing Stephen Mott wrote is unbiblical. You can check the references. But you are right, the Bible's form of social justice isn't exactly what the liberals preach. The Bible's command towards social justice is focused on the widows, orphans, aliens, workers, the poor, prisoners, slaves, the sick, and the oppressed. Now, liberals expand upon the "oppressed" by including minorities, women, and the LGBTQXYZ community.

The Justice of God and the Bible is not at all what modern, liberal social justice is about. Period. You can try to twist and argue, but it's not.