Submission? Or Power and Control?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by houston

Let's not act like this is done in a dark corner somewhere unbeknown to the leadership in the UPCI. It is the UPCI website where a pic was retrieved of a woman letting down her uncut hair to pray over the offering plate.

LS spread this junk all over the USA and around the world. He doesn't have a small following.

How in the world did LS get a "following" to begin with?

(did I really ask that? Why, yes I did...)

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Esaias

That's what I don't get. Mind prison?

My hair is short. I believe it ought to be short, because of scripture. Where's the prison? If someone taught me "if your hair gets long, if you stop cutting it, all hell will literally break loose" I don't see me fretting about it, since I wouldn't be growing my hair long anyway. Besides, I check everything with the Bible, so most likely I would either just smile and wave, or if I felt it was necessary I would ask for a comprehensive Bible study on the subject.

When you first heard these horror stories, did you stop and ask your husband? Did you search the scriptures to see if those things were true?

Of course I did all those things. I searched, I fasted I prayed. 16 years later, in my prayer closet, I finally had a revelation and I have never been the same since.

I know you don't understand the mind prison. Men usually don't because having short hair is very accepted as the norm in our society for men. No one asks you (probably) "Why do you keep your hair short?" Women, on the other hand, have to answer all sorts of questions there is no real answer to. We know the bible says long hair is given for a covering, but we can't answer why Samson was told not to cut his hair, why the Nazarite vow and shaving of the head was also for women and why long for women means uncut but long for men means below the ears because it isn't biblical, it's just tradition.

The mind prison is hard to explain, but it's very real and the reason I write these blogs because it takes a lot for people to wrap their heads around it but most of the time, they know on some level it's true. When a woman believes these fear-mongering tales that have no basis in reality and she's told that she's wrong with God if she doesn't believe them, mind prison results.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by ILG

Of course I did all those things. I searched, I fasted I prayed. 16 years later, in my prayer closet, I finally had a revelation and I have never been the same since.

I know you don't understand the mind prison. Men usually don't because having short hair is very accepted as the norm in our society for men. No one asks you (probably) "Why do you keep your hair short?" Women, on the other hand, have to answer all sorts of questions there is no real answer to. We know the bible says long hair is given for a covering, but we can't answer why Samson was told not to cut his hair, why the Nazarite vow and shaving of the head was also for women and why long for women means uncut but long for men means below the ears because it isn't biblical, it's just tradition.

The mind prison is hard to explain, but it's very real and the reason I write these blogs because it takes a lot for people to wrap their heads around it but most of the time, they know on some level it's true. When a woman believes these fear-mongering tales that have no basis in reality and she's told that she's wrong with God if she doesn't believe them, mind prison results.

Your husband never gave you a scriptural answer? Seems like you could have shortened 16 years down to about an evening or two.

My wife and daughters have long hair. When people comment to them about hair its always "Oh, you have such gorgeous hair! It's so long!" with an occasional "Wish my hair was that long" thrown in. They do get asked "So, why do you wear a head covering again? Are you Pentecostal? Mennonite? Amish?" Which immediately results in an impromptu Bible study on hair, headcoverings, prayer, the Holy Ghost, Jesus, the Bible, separation from the world, repentance, eternal life, etc.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Your husband never gave you a scriptural answer? Seems like you could have shortened 16 years down to about an evening or two.

My wife and daughters have long hair. When people comment to them about hair its always "Oh, you have such gorgeous hair! It's so long!" with an occasional "Wish my hair was that long" thrown in. They do get asked "So, why do you wear a head covering again? Are you Pentecostal? Mennonite? Amish?" Which immediately results in an impromptu Bible study on hair, headcoverings, prayer, the Holy Ghost, Jesus, the Bible, separation from the world, repentance, eternal life, etc.

Yes, he told me standards are not salvational. He wasn't able to answer why Samson was told not to cut his hair and why women were allowed to shave their heads for the Nazarite vow or why apostolics teach that long=uncut when the bible is not clear on that at all. But he did wisely tell me that it wasn't salvational. The mind prison I was in and the people around me said "She cut her hair-she backslid" which meant salvation was based on uncut hair and I didn't know the answer until I saw it straight from God.

[Esaias]

Usually when hair cutting and backsliding go together, the backsliding came first and the haircutting was just a symptom.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by houston

I'm sorry. The hair was placed over prayer requests at an Alabama ladies retreat.

Therefore every United Pentecostal in Alabama believes this?

Again, the point of this argument is that the organization has no position on this. End of story. If anyone was to take the organization to court trying to prove that the ORGANIZATION believed this as a tenent. We would be hard pressed to get a case going.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Right, that is what we have been trying to discuss, and why I asked for respectful dialogue. That is the point that ILG was making.

Contentious issues have always been discussed on FCF, NFCF, and AFF. FCF was a much better forum as people DID have respectful and intelligent dialogue. It wasn't a bunch of insults and GIF's. And there were a lot more posters because of that.

There was a lot more posters because Facebook wasn't around.
Respectful dialogue? Eh, no. FCF was definitely very good while Brother Yohe was alive. Haters were slim to none. But when his sister took over from Brother Mike Fleming then we really had haters at the gate. Blue Denim Whales? Seriously? Bundaged? Oh, yes it was light fun and sweet fellowship.

My foot.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't believe anyone was taking that view. I don't believe that is the stance that ILG is taking either. I see a lot of value in the UPCI.

You don't believe that she is taking that view? Well, I believe she is taking that view. Also others were led to believe she was taking that view. Go back to the original post, it isn't dealing with a bunch of verses. It is dealing with UPCI material written by UPCI authors. I have people in our church who wouldn't know Brother Lee Stoneking if he fell on them. Listen this may come as a shock, but not everyone who says Lord Lord are, or were ever UPC.

This whole attacking or defending the UPCI gets a little old.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Right, you didn't spend the "majority" of your time in the UPCI and so....

So much for respectful dialogue.

Meaning we who are independent Apostolics really have no skin in the game. Other than you all wanting to debate the scriptures. Bringing up the UPC material is all ILG issues, not ours. I never believed that everytime a bell rang an angel gots his wings, Neither have a lot of people here who are, were, or never were UPCI. So, if she had a hard row to hoe at the UPCI I don't know how that's my fault or my church families fault. She isn't here to glean manna, because she has stated that she knows all the arguments and were wrong and she is going to heaven with her own press club. Hooray.

It's old, typing out pages and pages of information to have disgruntled with a made up mind blow their nose with it. Seriously?

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Therefore every United Pentecostal in Alabama believes this?

Again, the point of this argument is that the organization has no position on this. End of story. If anyone was to take the organization to court trying to prove that the ORGANIZATION believed this as a tenent. We would be hard pressed to get a case going.

The organization doesn't preach against it because they don't want to dismantle their own stance even if it is false doctrine. It should be easy to teach against this. Instead, they leave it up to us "backslid heathen" to do it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by ILG

Hair like women's hair is obviously long hair.

How is that obvious? I'm trying to talk Bible but you are still stuck in some chit chat wanting me to decipher this through what is obvious in the world around me? Or obvious with the scripture? Sister the Greek word being used actually means to grow locks long. I showed how the Latin Vulgate interprets the word with the Latin word for growth, as to grow a child through nursing. The earliest Spanish Bible uses the word crecer which means GROW.

The translators and interpreters weren't UPC

Originally Posted by ILG

That doesn't mean it had to be uncut.

Did they walk around with rulers? Maybe they had chalk lines? How'd they determine what is long and what is short? Yep, this logic is all the UPCI's fault?

Good God from Zion

Originally Posted by ILG

And, for the record, Samson was commanded not to cut his hair and women could take the Nazarite vow and shave their head. If women cutting their hair was a sin, it would have been a sin then and now.

Sis, what did the vow represent and why did John take the vow as a youth. Luke 1:15? Why, what is the meaning?

What was different in the vow when a married women or daughter made the vow?

Sister, Judeans drank wine, sat shiva, and sacrificed animals through a mediator priesthood. 1st Corinthians 11 and Nazarite vows are comparing apples with lug nuts. No human being living today can keep a Nazarite vow. Yet, an Apostolic woman can grow her hair.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by ILG

The organization doesn't preach against it because they don't want to dismantle their own stance even if it is false doctrine.

A conspiracy theory?

Sorry sis, that's too funny.

The paramount issue is that the UPCI has NO OFFICIAL STATEMENT that you can control the migration paths of angels with hair. You have no argument, no case can be brought to law. Brother Stoneking can preach that dolphins escape from Atlantis when PeePaw gets a haircut. Yet, you would be unable to pin the tail on the UPCI as a whole. Sorry, no cigar, and you don't win a box of cookies.

Originally Posted by ILG

It should be easy to teach against this. Instead, they leave it up to us "backslid heathen" to do it.

So, your beef is that an organization has to make a formal announcement against this, and you will come back to the UPCI?

Why are you saying backslid heathen? What is that supposed to do for your message?