More On Beards

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by TakingDominion

I was having this discussion with my wife last night, (not specifically beards, but more along the lines of church traditions that we hold as biblical absolutes). The problem isn't the beards, the problem is with the mindset that says we can't change!

I was talking about how church folks in general and apostolics especially are against changing anything. Changing the lights, changing the pulpit (gasp), trading pews for chairs (liberals!) is usually met with cries of compromise and rhetoric about holding on to the "old paths".

She immediately accused me of compromise on things like dress standards etc. To that point in the conversation, I hadn't brought up dress standards at all. And that is the problem. Pennycostals hear the word change, and they immediately correlate it with "letting down standards" or compromising the message.

I told her, I'm not advocating changing the message. I'm saying we should look at changing the methods. Paul said, I have become all things to all people in order to try and save some!

I don't know what you guys are seeing, but in my local church we are LOSING this generation. I believe the biggest problem is that in rejecting any change within the conservative apostolic movement, we are not becoming all things to all people. In rejecting social media, we are rejecting the BIGGEST medium teenagers use today. In rejecting any change in service structure, we are telling the next generation they have to worship just like grandpa did. The truth is, this generation doesn't do ANYTHING like grandpa did anymore.

This is an important issue and also a slippery slope, I watched a UC church circle the drain when it let down standards in the hope of trying to save the youth group we were losing. I don't have answers but like your wife, it's one of my biggest concerns.

The other being, how do we make course corrections without becoming worldly and lost in entertainment forgetting the prayer closet.

We need to focus first on saving our families, and then on reaching the lost. If we save 30 people and our kids die lost, what is that worth?

[JoeBandy]

Originally Posted by Amanah

This is an important issue and also a slippery slope, I watched a UC church circle the drain when it let down standards in the hope of trying to save the youth group we were losing. I don't have answers but like your wife, it's one of my biggest concerns.

The other being, how do we make course corrections without becoming worldly and lost in entertainment forgetting the prayer closet.

We need to focus first on saving our families, and then on reaching the lost. If we save 30 people and our kids die lost, what is that worth?

I do not want to come across the wrong way with this... first off I do know what you mean by the word "we". If you lead 30 people to salvation that's awesome! But to ask if our kids die lost what is it worth??? Ask those 30 people!!! Our kids have their own salvation to work out! Do you not love thy neighbor as thyself??

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by JoeBandy

I do not want to come across the wrong way with this... first off I do know what you mean by the word "we". If you lead 30 people to salvation that's awesome! But to ask if our kids die lost what is it worth??? Ask those 30 people!!! Our kids have their own salvation to work out! Do you not love thy neighbor as thyself??

I have won many families, many who still are in contact with me and thank me for teaching them home bible studies and such.

But I almost lost my son while I was so busy in church ministry, teaching home bible studies, visitation follow up, bus ministry, teaching Sunday School. Involved with the Youth Group. When he walked away from church I felt like I was going to die. I feel like I was gone more than I should have been reaching others and somehow missed seeing what my own child needed.

Now I feel like the first priority needs to be securing our children, and then reaching the lost.

If you don't agree that is fine.

[houston]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I have won many families, many who still are in contact with me and thank me for teaching them home bible studies and such.

But I almost lost my son while I was so busy in church ministry, teaching home bible studies, visitation follow up, bus ministry, teaching Sunday School. Involved with the Youth Group. When he walked away from church I felt like I was going to die. I feel like I was gone more than I should have been reaching others and somehow missed seeing what my own child needed.

Now I feel like the first priority needs to be securing our children, and then reaching the lost.

If you don't agree that is fine.

The mindset for many is church first, family second. Strong churches don't make for strong families. Strong families make strong churches.

[n david]

Originally Posted by houston

The mindset for many is church first, family second. Strong churches don't make for strong families. Strong families make strong churches.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Now I feel like the first priority needs to be securing our children, and then reaching the lost.

If you don't agree that is fine.

[returnman]

Originally Posted by TakingDominion

I was having this discussion with my wife last night, (not specifically beards, but more along the lines of church traditions that we hold as biblical absolutes). The problem isn't the beards, the problem is with the mindset that says we can't change!

I was talking about how church folks in general and apostolics especially are against changing anything. Changing the lights, changing the pulpit (gasp), trading pews for chairs (liberals!) is usually met with cries of compromise and rhetoric about holding on to the "old paths".

She immediately accused me of compromise on things like dress standards etc. To that point in the conversation, I hadn't brought up dress standards at all. And that is the problem. Pennycostals hear the word change, and they immediately correlate it with "letting down standards" or compromising the message.

I told her, I'm not advocating changing the message. I'm saying we should look at changing the methods. Paul said, I have become all things to all people in order to try and save some!

I don't know what you guys are seeing, but in my local church we are LOSING this generation. I believe the biggest problem is that in rejecting any change within the conservative apostolic movement, we are not becoming all things to all people. In rejecting social media, we are rejecting the BIGGEST medium teenagers use today. In rejecting any change in service structure, we are telling the next generation they have to worship just like grandpa did. The truth is, this generation doesn't do ANYTHING like grandpa did anymore.

Very admirable for you to acknowledge this issue. The statistics for decades have always been that the UPC lost 90% of their youth eventually. There has been a lot of changes from what I see even from my distant vantage point. Young people need to participate in activities with others outside the church such as sports. Here is a big reason why that I even pointed out years ago. When they went to work at the big grocery store or where ever they mix with the world eventually. I saw it time and again where they were so brittle they succumbed immediately trying to be accepted. Not every church is so large they can incorporate enough activity to keep youth occupied till they are in their early 20's. I know I'll get blasted.

[JoeBandy]

Originally Posted by houston

The mindset for many is church first, family second. Strong churches don't make for strong families. Strong families make strong churches.

[Aquila]

I've seen churches let down the dress standards and something strange happens... the preachers don't return to those passages that teach modesty as frequently as they used to. It's almost as though they don't know how to interpret those things outside of the "standards" they were taught back when they held those standards. Christian modesty is indeed a biblical practice. Even if a church ceases to require dresses and skirts on women, or allows men to wear short sleeves, it doesn't mean that now Daisy Dukes and muscle shirts are appropriate attire. Just because you allow shorts, it doesn't mean that Speedos are appropriate.

There has to be a spiritual balance to it all.

And when it comes to beards... there is absolutely no biblical basis for requiring them or prohibiting them. And some preachers might say, "Not on my platform.", well, that might not be the kind of preacher you want. Because the church isn't his, it's Christ's. And if Jesus had a problem with beards, the Bible would make it plain.

Most churches I visit don't make a big deal out of beards at all. But in Apostolic churches I'm often treated like a second class citizen and my salvation is questioned. Why? Because I'm a man? Because I'm growing what my Father naturally gave me? Doth not even nature teach you that only women and children don't have beards? LOL What gives?

This weekend a Methodist pastor who is a dear friend of mine paid for me to go on a non-denominational retreat known as The Walk to Emmaus. Beginning on Thursday night, myself and about 20 other men from various denominations will be shut into a church for prayer, discussion, life application teaching, confession, and healing. Oh, and there will be food. That's why I'm going. lol We'll be there until late Sunday evening. But I'm willing to wager that not a single person on this retreat will even really care if I have a beard. If it were an Apostolic church, I'd not even be invited.

[JoeBandy]

Originally Posted by returnman

Very admirable for you to acknowledge this issue. The statistics for decades have always been that the UPC lost 90% of their youth eventually. There has been a lot of changes from what I see even from my distant vantage point. Young people need to participate in activities with others outside the church such as sports. Here is a big reason why that I even pointed out years ago. When they went to work at the big grocery store or where ever they mix with the world eventually. I saw it time and again where they were so brittle they succumbed immediately trying to be accepted. Not every church is so large they can incorporate enough activity to keep youth occupied till they are in their early 20's. I know I'll get blasted.

I agree with you, plus have additional points I may add later.