Anybody here study Latin grammar?

[Esaias]

I do not understand the point of learning "verb stems". In first conjugation verbs ("-are" verbs), you simply drop the infinitive ending ("-are") and replace it with the personal ending. Why learn "stems" instead of going straight to the infinitive and the paradigm for the personal endings?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I do not understand the point of learning "verb stems". In first conjugation verbs ("-are" verbs), you simply drop the infinitive ending ("-are") and replace it with the personal ending. Why learn "stems" instead of going straight to the infinitive and the paradigm for the personal endings?

Either Aaron (Votivesoul) or my wife.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Either Aaron (Votivesoul) or my wife.

Ask her, please. When we were learning koine Greek I don't remember "stems", just verb families and endings and paradigms. Seems like messing with stems is just... unnecessary?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Either Aaron (Votivesoul) or my wife.

I never studied Latin, but I did study two of its descendant languages, Spanish and French, at the collegiate level, and verb stems in those languages become important later on, as it relates to tenses and irregular verbs. Perhaps Latin works the same way?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I never studied Latin, but I did study two of its descendant languages, Spanish and French, at the collegiate level, and verb stems in those languages become important later on, as it relates to tenses and irregular verbs. Perhaps Latin works the same way?

I've studied Spanish, we learned verb families (ar, er, and ir, plus irregulars). We learned conjugations like this:

-ar family, like HABLAR (to speak)

-o -amos
-as -ais
- a -an

Thus,
hablo hablamos
hablas hablais
habla hablan

We learned this for all tenses, voices, and moods. It's all about the paradigms. Learn the infinitive, drop the ending, add the personal ending.

Stems were the things you held a flower by.

[Esaias]

I think Latin instruction has been intentionally made more complicated than necessary...

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I've studied Spanish, we learned verb families (ar, er, and ir, plus irregulars). We learned conjugations like this:

-ar family, like HABLAR (to speak)

-o -amos
-as -ais
- a -an

Thus,
hablo hablamos
hablas hablais
habla hablan

We learned this for all tenses, voices, and moods. It's all about the paradigms. Learn the infinitive, drop the ending, add the personal ending.

Stems were the things you held a flower by.

Verbal stems in Spanish and French (also in other languages) were the leftover parts of the verb after the various endings were dropped or before they were added.

So, in your example of hablar. To drop the -ar infinitive ending leaves you with habl-, which is the verb stem.

Learning the stems helps a person know and remember what to drop off when changing tenses and moods, and etc. So, in future tenses, not only does the stem habl- remain, but so does the infinitive ending -ar, after which the future endings can be attached. I found this to be very helpful, as the rule was generally consistent across the board, except for the handful of irregulars that needed to be memorized.

Is it the same for Latin? I don't know. Not all grammars are created equal. Maybe find another resource that addresses the issue you are raising.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Verbal stems in Spanish and French (also in other languages) were the leftover parts of the verb after the various endings were dropped or before they were added.

So, in your example of hablar. To drop the -ar infinitive ending leaves you with habl-, which is the verb stem.

Learning the stems helps a person know and remember what to drop off when changing tenses and moods, and etc. So, in future tenses, not only does the stem habl- remain, but so does the infinitive ending -ar, after which the future endings can be attached. I found this to be very helpful, as the rule was generally consistent across the board, except for the handful of irregulars that needed to be memorized.

Is it the same for Latin? I don't know. Not all grammars are created equal. Maybe find another resource that addresses the issue you are raising.

Latin has four verb families or conjugations, -are, -ere, and two others, plus the irregulars. I'm currently on the -are family.

Take the word amare. That is an infinitive, meaning "to love". The text I'm working with begins by introducing the word "amo" (I love). It then introduces the stem, ama-. It then introduces the 6 conjugations for present active indicative:
amo amamus
amas amatis
amat amant

The instructions are to take the stem, ama-, and add the personal ending. In the first person singular, the "stem vowel" (final "a" of the stem) has to be dropped. So the endings which are memorised are as follows:

-o -mus
-s -tis
-t -nt

Four lessons follow this format, for various tenses and various vocabulary words.

Then, a lesson comes up titled "Infinitive", which introduces the infinitive form of the word, "amare". It then says the stem is found by dropping the -re.

Now tell me if I'm wrong, but instead of going through all this rigamarole, wouldn't it have been easier to just introduce the infinitive family, -are, with the model word, amare, then give the paradigm endings thus:

-o -amus
-as -atis
-at -ant

...with instructions to "drop the -are ending of the infinitive, and add the personal ending from the paradigm"?????

So in memorizing the paradigm you just chant "o, as, at, amus, atis, ant" instead of trying to memorize "o, s, t, mus, tis, nt"?????

And EVERY Latin grammar source I can find on the intardnetti goes on and on about "stems" with the same seemingly useless information about "drop the -re, add the personal ending except in first person singular because you have to in that case drop the stem vowel before adding the ending" blah blah blah.

I cannot believe that I have stumbled onto a conspiracy to make Latin unpalatable, or that I have discovered a revolutionary easier way to teach verb conjugations for Latin. So I must be missing something blatantly obvious but for the life of me I cannot fathom what it would be.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Latin has four verb families or conjugations, -are, -ere, and two others, plus the irregulars. I'm currently on the -are family.

Take the word amare. That is an infinitive, meaning "to love". The text I'm working with begins by introducing the word "amo" (I love). It then introduces the stem, ama-. It then introduces the 6 conjugations for present active indicative:
amo amamus
amas amatis
amat amant

The instructions are to take the stem, ama-, and add the personal ending. In the first person singular, the "stem vowel" (final "a" of the stem) has to be dropped. So the endings which are memorised are as follows:

-o -mus
-s -tis
-t -nt

Four lessons follow this format, for various tenses and various vocabulary words.

Then, a lesson comes up titled "Infinitive", which introduces the infinitive form of the word, "amare". It then says the stem is found by dropping the -re.

Now tell me if I'm wrong, but instead of going through all this rigamarole, wouldn't it have been easier to just introduce the infinitive family, -are, with the model word, amare, then give the paradigm endings thus:

-o -amus
-as -atis
-at -ant

...with instructions to "drop the -are ending of the infinitive, and add the personal ending from the paradigm"?????

So in memorizing the paradigm you just chant "o, as, at, amus, atis, ant" instead of trying to memorize "o, s, t, mus, tis, nt"?????

And EVERY Latin grammar source I can find on the intardnetti goes on and on about "stems" with the same seemingly useless information about "drop the -re, add the personal ending except in first person singular because you have to in that case drop the stem vowel before adding the ending" blah blah blah.

I cannot believe that I have stumbled onto a conspiracy to make Latin unpalatable, or that I have discovered a revolutionary easier way to teach verb conjugations for Latin. So I must be missing something blatantly obvious but for the life of me I cannot fathom what it would be.

That is rigamarole. It's the exact word I thought of before I read your use of it. It does seem backwards. I remember in college Algebra, I was lost most of the time, until ten weeks in, and we began to study Logarithms, which is like doing Algebra in reverse. I remember thinking, why didn't we start with these in week one, because I finally started to understand what was going on.

There probably is a perfectly good reason for why Latin grammars are the way they are. It likely has to do with future lessons. I would hang tight until you get further down the road.

This site has a forum you could join to ask your questions. Maybe you can find some help:

http://www.textkit.com/

http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/

http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-f...wforum.php?f=3

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

That is rigamarole. It's the exact word I thought of before I read your use of it. It does seem backwards. I remember in college Algebra, I was lost most of the time, until ten weeks in, and we began to study Logarithms, which is like doing Algebra in reverse. I remember thinking, why didn't we start with these in week one, because I finally started to understand what was going on.

There probably is a perfectly good reason for why Latin grammars are the way they are. It likely has to do with future lessons. I would hang tight until you get further down the road.

This site has a forum you could join to ask your questions. Maybe you can find some help:

http://www.textkit.com/

http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/

http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-f...wforum.php?f=3

Ha! In the mouth of two witnesses, it is established, that this is rigamarole (pronounced, ree gah mah ROH lay, make sure you trill the r's) without even a smidgeon of marinara to help it down.

I am beginning this as a Latin course for the kids (me learning as well). But I think I will teach the infinitive and a proper conjugation, then when that is grasped I will follow the text with its "stem" stuff just in case it pops back up later for some mystical heretofore unknown purposes.