How Do You Ride a Horse, a Cloud, and a Throne?

[Sean]

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...0&postcount=12




It just baffles me that non-omnipresentists would oppose the actuality of Rev 1:7.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Thanks for the kind words.

I think I know the one you speak of. I believe they are a troll. So, I’m tryng to ignore their posts.

The one in question believes he/she gets to define what one is saying instead of the one saying it. You may respectfully clarify your remarks, but he/she goes beyond disagreeing and says, "no, you are saying this". But if all cease acknowledging that he/she exists, the strife will vanish.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Excellent post!

Thank you!

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The one in question believes he/she gets to define what one is saying instead of the one saying it. You may respectfully clarify your remarks, but he/she goes beyond disagreeing and says, "no, you are saying this". But if all cease acknowledging that he/she exists, the strife will vanish.

I cannot agree with you more!!

[houston]

Originally Posted by Sean

Omnipresence. You got it.

That’s not omnipresence. Wow.

[Esaias]

Just a note: The description in Acts ch 1 is not a symbolic vision, but a description of an actual, historical and literal event, coupled with a declaration that the return would be in the "same manner" as the departure.

The two scenes in the Apocalypse are clearly symbolic visions using apocalyptic imagery.

[JamesGlen]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Preachers that teach the prophecy view of Dispensationalism believe there will be a future “coming of Jesus Christ.” These preachers describe this time to include protection for God’s people and judgment for those in rebellion against Him. For this event, these preachers say this “return” will literally occur three very different ways. Here are the verses they use for this:

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

So, Jesus is coming on a white horse. However, they also say this:

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

So, it’s a white horse and a white cloud? But wait, they also use this verse:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

These same Dispensational preachers say the above verses must be read as literal occurrences. So, they have a physical Jesus simultaneously sitting on an actual horse, cloud, and throne. But can a physical body of Jesus be on all three of those things at the same time? Simple answer—He can’t. But a person who understands how prophetic imagery is used in biblical prophecy, they can explain how these three things are not in conflict, but instead that they emphasize the meaning of each other. In an effort to prove this, look at the following example of how prophetic imagery is used in the Bible:

Acts 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

In this passage, Jesus is said to be coming again in “like manner” as the disciples saw Him go. Nowhere do we see a horse or throne here. This absence makes this passage problematic if a horse, a cloud, and a throne is to “literally” be found during a physical coming of Jesus. Since every verse in the Bible agrees together, we need to look deeper to see how these three items agree with each other within the passages where they are found. To do this we must first ask if the issue in Acts 1 is the “cloud” or the “manner” in which Jesus departed? If it is the cloud, then the missing horse and throne are a problem for the Dispensationalist. But if this cloud is a reference to “the manner” in which Jesus is to return, then we can find agreement. I say this because the Bible uses images like clouds, horses, and thrones as prophetic imagery. By using this hermeneutic, much of the meaning of the Bible’s prophetic language can be properly interpreted. Some examples of the Bible’s usage of imagery is Jesus being a lamb and a shepherd, a sacrifice and a priest, a servant and a master, an advocate and a judge, a son and a father. Each of these pairings of images conflict with one another. For instance, how can Jesus be both a lamb and a priest? No one I know teaches that Jesus was a literal wooly lamb or a literal Temple Priest. Instead, they see these as images of something deeper for which He is known. So, why shouldn’t that same hermeneutic be used to explain a horse, a cloud, and a throne being used in verses about His return? With that in mind, look at how these three images all harmonize in what was prophesied to occur during that time.

In prophetic imagery, clouds are associated with God’s power and His glory. See Isaiah 19:1; Jeremiah 4:13-14; Ezekiel 30:3, Ezekiel 30:18-19; Nahum 1:2-6; Joel 2:1-9; Nahum 1:2-6; Zephaniah 1:14-17; Joel 2:1-9

A horse in prophecy represents the unfaithfulness of man, as well as the swiftness and the power of God. See Deuteronomy 20:1-4; Psalms 20:7, Psalms 33:17-19, Psalms 147:10-11; Proverbs 21:31; Zechariah 1:8, Zechariah 6:3-8, Zechariah 9:10, Zechariah 12:3-5, Zechariah 14:20; Hosea 1:7; Revelation 6:2-8; Job 39:19

Verses referring to God’s throne uses that imagery to represent His authority. See Psalms 103:19; Isaiah 66:1; Matthew 5:34-35, Matthew 19:28; Luke 1:32;

To see if I am using these three images correctly, look up the abovementioned verses. Then read each of them using the included meanings within the context where the verses are found. Don’t take my word for it. Study it through. I’ve found the Bible is easily understood if you use the tools found within itself to interpret its meaning. That takes study and commitment, for you cannot know what the Bible says until you fully devour what is found on its pages. This explains why many of the Bible’s truths are called a “mystery.” It is also why Jesus spoke in parables. Neither a mystery or a parable is to remain hidden. Instead, they are purposed by God so that only the sincere will find their meanings. (See Matthew 13:10-13; Luke 8:10; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Ephesians 3:4-5)

So, what does it mean that Jesus will return on a white cloud, a white horse, and a white throne? It means He would come in God’s power and in His glory, to bring judgment against unfaithful men with the swiftness and the power of God, while acting in the authority of the Almighty. This interpretation does not involve literal clouds, horses or thrones, instead, it uses the prophetic imagery found in the Bible. Therefore, this interpretation does not conflict—but instead agrees—with the other verses that speak of what was to occur during this coming of the Lord.

This study is found online HERE.

To see more on Jesus coming in a cloud, go to THIS STUDY.

IMO, Acts 1:9-11 is NOT prophetic imagery. The “clouds” mentioned in that verse in Acts 1 has zero to do with purposing enlightenment of a coming judgement, regarding the phrase “ in like manner”.

When the angel told them that he would come in like manner as he left, he did not wink at them and suddenly revelation came upon them of a “Old Testament clouds judgment”, neither would they have thought that at all, would they?

There is no way at all, IMO, that those seeing him ascend into heaven would’ve thought, oh he’s coming back in judgment because he went away ascending into the clouds... even if they knew the Old Testament passages regarding coming in clouds represented judgment, and they likely did.

Prophetic imagery in the book of Revelation is great, but I think it is error to pin it on Acts 1, Specifically as being understood as prophetic imagery by those who saw his ascension.

The q is: Who in those days would’ve understood and interpreted Jesus this ascension as a coming back in judgment, and why would they?

Or is this only a revelation to those that have read the book of Revelation, and look back at His ascension recording, and the lightbulb turned on that he meant judgment?


Does it matter at all what they would’ve thought when they seen him go in the clouds?


IMO, The burden of proof is upon someone to prove THOSE people to have interpreted his ascension MANNER as prophetic imagery, aka: a later return in JUDGEMENT. ( if that is not the burden of proof, then what is? )
(.... no matter what the interpretation is of those that have read the book of Revelation since then).


However, maybe in your mind you do not feel that those having seen the Ascension would’ve interpreted it as a coming back and judgment… ? Please explain your thoughts on that.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Preachers that teach the prophecy view of Dispensationalism believe there will be a future “coming of Jesus Christ.” These preachers describe this time to include protection for God’s people and judgment for those in rebellion against Him. For this event, these preachers say this “return” will literally occur three very different ways. Here are the verses they use for this:

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

So, Jesus is coming on a white horse. However, they also say this:

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

So, it’s a white horse and a white cloud? But wait, they also use this verse:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Intellectual honesty would define these things as the futurist sees them:

Christ comes on a white horse at the Second Coming and destroys the armies of the beast and the false prophet at the end of the Great Tribulation:

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

The reference in Revelation 14 is a spiritual reference to the harvesting of souls during the Tribulation. In futurism, this is a spiritual reality, not a physical one:

Revelation 14:14-19
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The final reference is a reference to an event that Futurists believe will transpire after the future Millennium, it takes place as part of the Great White Throne Judgment:

Revelation 20:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

So, in futurism, these are not all the same event.

Now...

Preterists typically interpret these events as all being the same event. So, it would be fair to ask a Preterist if Christ comes on a horse, on a cloud, or on a throne. However, Preterism is an interesting animal. Why? Because Preterism interprets the single coming that they see in these texts "spiritually" (much the same as Futurists interpret Revelation 14). So, technically Preterism doesn't see Christ literally coming on a horse, a cloud, or a throne. They see these as "symbols" depicting a specific spiritual reality related to whatever given perspective of this singular coming they believe is presented in the text itself. And the Partial Preterists have very limited texts that even they believe depict the actual physical second coming (Revelation 20:11 being one of them). So, not even Preterism can be called on this argument.

Dare I say, this is a red herring? lol

[Sean]

TK has a hit a white section of his jigsaw puzzle and is trying to force the pieces into place.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

IMO, Acts 1:9-11 is NOT prophetic imagery. The “clouds” mentioned in that verse in Acts 1 has zero to do with purposing enlightenment of a coming judgement, regarding the phrase “ in like manner”.

When the angel told them that he would come in like manner as he left, he did not wink at them and suddenly revelation came upon them of a “Old Testament clouds judgment”, neither would they have thought that at all, would they?

There is no way at all, IMO, that those seeing him ascend into heaven would’ve thought, oh he’s coming back in judgment because he went away ascending into the clouds... even if they knew the Old Testament passages regarding coming in clouds represented judgment, and they likely did.

Prophetic imagery in the book of Revelation is great, but I think it is error to pin it on Acts 1, Specifically as being understood as prophetic imagery by those who saw his ascension.

The q is: Who in those days would’ve understood and interpreted Jesus this ascension as a coming back in judgment, and why would they?

Or is this only a revelation to those that have read the book of Revelation, and look back at His ascension recording, and the lightbulb turned on that he meant judgment?


Does it matter at all what they would’ve thought when they seen him go in the clouds?


IMO, The burden of proof is upon someone to prove THOSE people to have interpreted his ascension MANNER as prophetic imagery, aka: a later return in JUDGEMENT. ( if that is not the burden of proof, then what is? )
(.... no matter what the interpretation is of those that have read the book of Revelation since then).


However, maybe in your mind you do not feel that those having seen the Ascension would’ve interpreted it as a coming back and judgment… ? Please explain your thoughts on that.

So, what did the angels mean when they told the disciples they would see Jesus "come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven"?