How Do You Ride a Horse, a Cloud, and a Throne?

[Sean]

What are other ways Preterism brings peace? It ends the endless "speculation" of cooks and quacks who keep writing books like, 88 Reasons Why the World Will End In 1988.

Pretrerists are not sensationalists also?

Check out planet preterist and preterist archives for backward sensationalism.

Preterists bring peace?.....LOL(DB)

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

The Bible does not compartmentalize its message in neat chapters and verses. Man did that, not God.

I am a firm believer in the idea that context matters. Your mileage may vary.

Originally Posted by TK Burk

So, my answer to you would be by verses such as what's found in Acts 2. Here's what Peter said there:

"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." (Act 2:40)

This message to save yourself from "THIS rebellious generation" is no different a message than the disciples in Acts 1 had already heard in verses such as these: Matthew 11:16, Matthew 12:41, Matthew 12:42, Matthew 23:36, Matthew 24:34; Mark 8:12, Mark 13:30, Luke 11:30, Luke 11:31, Luke 11:32, Luke 11:50, Luke 11:51, Luke 17:25, Luke 21:32.

The disciples knew Jesus prophesied judgment was to come to their generation. So, when they heard the Heavenly message about the "manner" in which He would return in Acts 1, they applied that to what they had been taught. To imagine their memory of what was foretold about that generation somehow failed them in Acts 1 is pretty hard to imagine.

Acts 1 says nothing about what the disciples "applied" to the angels' words. It says this:

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. (10) And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; (11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He was there, conversing with them. He ascended up into the sky, and disappeared into a cloud. The angels told them He would come from heaven in the same manner that they saw Him depart into heaven.

Does the Bible describe additional details about additional events surrounding His return? Sure. But those additional details cannot be used to claim that He will not descend from heaven in the same manner that He ascended to heaven.

Other translations say it thusly:

Acts 1:9-11 ABP And [these things having said], of their looking, he was lifted up, and a cloud undertook him from their eyes. (10) And as they were gazing into the heaven at his going, and behold, [men two] stood by them in [attire white], (11) ones who also said, Men, Galileans, why do you stand looking into the heaven? This Jesus, the one being taken up from you into the heaven, so shall come in which manner you saw him going into the heaven.

Acts 1:9-11 Bishops And when he had spoken these thynges, whyle they behelde, he was taken vp an hye, and a cloude receaued hym vp out of their syght. (10) And while they loked stedfastly vp towarde heaue, as he went, beholde, two men stoode by them in whyte apparell, (11) Which also sayde: Ye men of Galilee, why stande ye gasyng vp into heauen? This same Iesus, which is taken vp from you into heauen, shall so come, euen as ye haue seene hym go into heauen.

Acts 1:9-11 LITV And saying these things, as they looked on, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him from their sight. (10) And as they were intently looking into the heaven, He having gone, even behold, two men in white clothing stood by them, (11) who also said, Men, Galileans, why do you stand looking up to the heaven? This Jesus, the One being taken from you into the heaven, will come in the way you saw Him going into the heaven.

Acts 1:9-11 ESV And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. (10) And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, (11) and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

Originally Posted by TK Burk

But you cannot separate the "coming" from what is to happen during that coming. Thus, the "manner" applies to what would happen during that time.

The issue is not "what is to happen during that coming" so much as it is the "manner in which" He ascended, which will be the same "manner" in which He will descend. The "manner" applies to what it actually applies to in the text, which is the actual ascension of Jesus. The angels said He would come in the same way He left. How did He leave? On the dust clouds of the Roman armies? No, He literally floated up into the sky into a cloud out of their sight. And He will return the same way.

It might offend our sensibilities, but that's what the good Book plainly says. "Never trade what the Bible clearly says for something you wish it to say. - TK Burk.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

What we do know is that it is a historical fact that as the Roman legions began entering Judaea, and began surrounding Jerusalem, the Christian communities of Judea saw these events as being the fulfillment of Christ's prophecy against Jerusalem. Upon seeing these things, multiplied thousands of Christians began to pack up and flee Judea, as Christ had admonished believers to do upon seeing Jerusalem surrounded by armies. A significant number of these Christians fled to Pella and sought refuge there. Soon after, the Romans began their siege of Jerusalem. Historians note that the historical accounts of the Roman invasion appear to indicate that not a single Christian was killed in the siege.

It's clear that by obeying the literal understanding of Christ's words, as recorded in the Olivet Discourse, the first century church in Judea was spared total annihilation. Not only that, but the literal understanding of Christ's words that speak to a first century fulfillment indicates that the siege of 70 AD, and the destruction of the temple, was a final judgment upon unbelieving Israel, and the end of the entire Mosaic system. During this time the entire region was afire with apocalyptic expectation. However, as the events unfolded and Jerusalem fell, it is as though an orchestra had reached a crescendo... leaving a single note hanging in the air. Why? Although everything that Christ warned of appeared to manifest in vivid fulfillment... Christ had not returned. This has led to many skeptics claiming that Christ's prophecies failed.

Or... was this prophecy by Christ symbolic? Was his "return" in "the clouds" a return of Him in spirit to execute judgment on Judea? Preterism embraces this understanding.

This prophecy is a living prophecy. The destruction of the Temple and the dispersion of the Jews is something that has had a very real affect on the world even unto this day. Why do Jews weep and pray at the wailing wall? Why do they pray for the rebuilding of the temple? Because it was destroyed, just as Jesus said it would be. The very day to day reality lived by every Jew on the planet testifies to Christ's supremacy over their apostate religious system and legalism. The modern Jew is in the predicament they are in because... they rejected Christ and crucified Him... and as a result, He brought judgment upon them. Preterist or not... only the spiritually blind would deny that Christ came in judgment against Jerusalem in AD 70.

One thing that Preterism does is that it provides peace. If one accepts that Christ's prophecies were fulfilled in that generation, just as He said they would be, then we can gaze into history and see Christ's rule and providence from Heaven as God, it is Jesus who truly rules the nations. It is Christ who allows kingdoms to rise and brings them to their knees. It is Christ who brought the fall of Jerusalem, Christ who brought the fall of Rome, Christ who brought the fall of the Holy Roman Empire, Christ who brought the fall of the Ottoman Empire, Christ who brought the fall of the British Empire, Christ who brought the fall of the Axis Powers, Christ who brought the fall of the USSR, and as we see the circumstances unfolding in our day... it is Christ who is perhaps even preparing to come in judgment against... America.

Why does this bring peace? Because it solidly affirms Christ as the ruler of all nations, it affirms Christ as the very author of history.

What are other ways Preterism brings peace? It ends the endless "speculation" of cooks and quacks who keep writing books like, 88 Reasons Why the World Will End In 1988. It ends the constant and feverish quest to pin the tail on the Antichrist, or the ten nations that comprise the end time "Beast". To serious theologians who truly consider the very real implications of these attempts to interpret prophecy from the newspaper, this can cause enough stress to cause ulcers. For the Preterist believer, one lives one day at a time, advancing the Gospel. And the believer is simply waiting for that day when Christ will truly suddenly appear in the fullness of His glory and bring an end to all the suffering in our world... forever. There isn't a need to discover who the Beast is or contemplate how one will survive the 7 trumpets. It is understood that the spirit of antichrist is present throughout the world, and has been for thousands of years, and will be until Christ returns. It is also understood that Christ currently rules from Heaven and can bring judgment upon nations that oppose the advancement of the Gospel. And perhaps that's what we're seeing in the Middle East today as the entire region becomes more and more unstable with regimes who have opposed the Gospel weakening.

Since AD 70... a single note has hung in the air. The end will come when Christ appears. And it will ALL be over.

I don't think you understand preterism.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." (Act 2:40)

This message to save yourself from "THIS rebellious generation" is no different a message than the disciples in Acts 1 had already heard in verses such as these: Matthew 11:16, Matthew 12:41, Matthew 12:42, Matthew 23:36, Matthew 24:34; Mark 8:12, Mark 13:30, Luke 11:30, Luke 11:31, Luke 11:32, Luke 11:50, Luke 11:51, Luke 17:25, Luke 21:32.

The disciples knew Jesus prophesied judgment was to come to their generation. So, when they heard the Heavenly message about the "manner" in which He would return in Acts 1, they applied that to what they had been taught. To imagine their memory of what was foretold about that generation somehow failed them in Acts 1 is pretty hard to imagine.

If we follow this logic to its rational conclusion, it would mean tht Acts 2:38 is for that generation, not ours. The people were to be saved from THAT wicked and perverse generation, which you seem to interpret as meaning they were to save themselves from the divine judgment coming on that generation in the form of the destruction of Jerusalem. Which seems strange to me, couldn't Peter have simply said "get out of Jerusalem until the Romans destroy it"?

Perhaps you could show how Peter's words to THAT generation have any relevance to us now, almost 2,000 years later?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If we follow this logic to its rational conclusion, it would mean tht Acts 2:38 is for that generation, not ours. The people were to be saved from THAT wicked and perverse generation, which you seem to interpret as meaning they were to save themselves from the divine judgment coming on that generation in the form of the destruction of Jerusalem. Which seems strange to me, couldn't Peter have simply said "get out of Jerusalem until the Romans destroy it"?

Perhaps you could show how Peter's words to THAT generation have any relevance to us now, almost 2,000 years later?

A follow up question seeking more clarification:

How would being baptised in the name of Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost save someone from a Roman invasion of Judea and siege of Jerusalem some 40 years later?

[JamesGlen]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

I was pushing the point to see what would be said about the "manner" of this return. I believe those who would see this refers to those of that generation, of which John would have been to only surviving apostle. There are many verses that confirm this generation timeframe. I also believe the "manner" of this coming is more than just an up and down physical journey. I believe the clouds refer to something more since they are used many times in the Bible to speak of God's power and His glory. The apostles would know this. This type return is also confirmed in Scripture. Thus, I see this "manner" and "clouds" agreeing together to form a prophetic message as to what will occur during that return of Christ.

The bolded is interesting, in light of John 21:22

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If we follow this logic to its rational conclusion, it would mean tht Acts 2:38 is for that generation, not ours. The people were to be saved from THAT wicked and perverse generation, which you seem to interpret as meaning they were to save themselves from the divine judgment coming on that generation in the form of the destruction of Jerusalem. Which seems strange to me, couldn't Peter have simply said "get out of Jerusalem until the Romans destroy it"?

Perhaps you could show how Peter's words to THAT generation have any relevance to us now, almost 2,000 years later?

Why would Acts 2:38 be applicable only to the first century believer, simply because Peter referred to a benefit they would experience in being saved from their wicked generation applicable to their time alone, while mentioning a universal plan of salvation for everyone? Peter mentioned the sun turning black and moon to blood to those people, and that's not saying Acts 2:38 is only for the people who see the sun turn black and moon to blood. Why should the other?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Why would Acts 2:38 be applicable only to the first century believer, simply because Peter referred to a benefit they would experience in being saved from their wicked generation applicable to their time alone, while mentioning a universal plan of salvation for everyone? Peter mentioned the sun turning black and moon to blood to those people, and that's not saying Acts 2:38 is only for the people who see the sun turn black and moon to blood. Why should the other?

Originally Posted by TK Burk View Post
"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." (Act 2:40)
This message to save yourself from "THIS rebellious generation" is no different a message than the disciples in Acts 1 had already heard in verses such as these: Matthew 11:16, Matthew 12:41, Matthew 12:42, Matthew 23:36, Matthew 24:34; Mark 8:12, Mark 13:30, Luke 11:30, Luke 11:31, Luke 11:32, Luke 11:50, Luke 11:51, Luke 17:25, Luke 21:32.

The disciples knew Jesus prophesied judgment was to come to their generation.

I'm not sure how else to take brother Burk's words here, hence my statement and my question. But I'll wait for him to respond.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Why would Acts 2:38 be applicable only to the first century believer, simply because Peter referred to a benefit they would experience in being saved from their wicked generation applicable to their time alone, while mentioning a universal plan of salvation for everyone? Peter mentioned the sun turning black and moon to blood to those people, and that's not saying Acts 2:38 is only for the people who see the sun turn black and moon to blood. Why should the other?

Mike, do you, like TK, think this verse is saying that those disciples were told by the angels that they would see Jesus' return?....




11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sean

Pretrerists are not sensationalists also?

Check out planet preterist and preterist archives for backward sensationalism.

Preterists bring peace?.....LOL(DB)

For those who have grown weary of always being afraid and always hearing the next great theory of who the Beast is, it brings considerable peace.