The Last Reformation Hospital Miracle

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

People are NOT being discipled in some places.

Their reasoning is,"Well I cant let them pray for that person to be delivered or be healed because they have never done that before."

In the real church, praying for the sick and casting out devils or praying for someone to receive the HolyGhost should be entry level skills that you are instantly qualified to do once you receive the HolyGhost but the way its treated is that its some sort of complicated master level skill set and this ministry tears that thought pattern down around its ears.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Considering 1 Corinthians chapters 12-14 and Paul's correction of abuses regarding speaking in tongues, don't you think it odd that he never said "some of this stuff going on is demonic"? Rather, people simply weren't operating properly "as a team", causing disorder. The solution wasn't casting out demons, but proper teaching.

Thoughts?

I think you make a valid point.

I've seen things in churches that I thought were demonic. For example, people barking like dogs, walking around the room on all fours making cow sounds, hooting like owls, and laughing hysterically as "the spirit" (an unseen force) comes over them. I'd agree with casting whatever spirit of chaos is inspiring these behaviors.

But you're right. When it comes to the gifts of the Spirit, sincere individuals can use them improperly. When a gift is used improperly, it isn't a demonic manifestation. It is a circumstance that might just require some basic teaching and training.

Based on my studies these gifts can be defined as follows:

Speaking Gifts:

1.) Gift of Prophesy - The impartation of the ability to speak and/or deliver a message directly from God concerning a spiritual reality or situation in the past, present, or future ("Thus saith the LORD..."). It is also the ability to declare a thing using authority from God, and it come to pass ("I prophesy healing into the lives of God's people, in the name of Jesus!").
2.) Gift of Tongues - The impartation of the ability to speak a message directly from God "in the Spirit" or to supernaturally "pray in the Spirit". 3.) Gift of Interpretation of Tongues - The impartation of the ability to "interpret" (not translate) unknown tongues spoken through the "Gift of Tongues".

Revelatory Gifts:

1.) Word of Knowledge - The impartation of knowledge and/or information pertaining to a person, place, thing, situation, or chain of events that the gift holder could not have known by any natural means.
2.) Word of Wisdom - Divine wisdom or insight about a situation that is delivered straight from God.
3.) Discernment of Spirits - The ability to supernaturally know the motive of a human spirit or to discern the presence and nature of spiritual beings (angels or demons).

Power Gifts:

1.) Gift of Faith - The impartation of supernatural faith that defies all logic in a given, seemingly hopeless, situation or circumstance.
2.) Gifts of Healing - The impartation of the power to heal various maladies in the body, soul, or spirit.
3.) Gift of Miracles - The impartation of the power to pray and have prayers answered, even if the outcome requires supernatural means that defy the laws of nature.

When operating in the Spiritual gifts, we have to consider another provision of the Holy Spirit, "visions". I believe visions can reveal things about the past, the present, or the future. A vision might also reveal a previously unseen or misunderstood spiritual truth or reality. In addition, any of the Revelatory Gifts can be communicated via a vision. Based on my studies of the Scriptures, visions can come in at least five different ways. The five ways one might experience a vision are:

Visionary Dreams - A visionary experience while asleep or unconscious. The individual having this type of vision might be a participant or a passive observer during the vision.

Inner Vision - A visionary experience while awake. It might seem like a daydream, or it might be of such an intensity that it commands one's full attention.

Open Heavens Vision - A visionary experience wherein the individual having the vision experiences the vision as one looking into a what has, is, or will transpire as the vision plays out before them. It can be very real, like watching a movie that appears to be playing in thin air.

Panoramic Vision - A visionary experience wherein the individual who is having the vision experiences the vision as though they are a part of it as it transpires all around them.

Spiritual Vision - A visionary experience wherein the one who is having the vision is caught up out of their body and is spiritually translated to another location or even Heaven (or perhaps the "realm of spirit") to experience the vision and even interact with angels or the Lord Himself.

I believe that those who walk in the prophetic will have some rather deep experiences in these things. Those who hear the Holy Spirit communicate to them through a type of impression or inner hearing are experiencing the "prophetic anointing". Those who see visions and have visionary experiences are experiencing the "seer anointing". Prophets "hear" and tell. Seers "see" and tell. Not all prophets are seers. However, all seers are prophets.

I don't believe that any of these giftings are "demonic". They are genuine manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the church. However, those who experience these gifts must be taught what these gifts are, how to activate this power of the Holy Spirit, how to allow these gifts to flow, and how to use them properly in one's daily life as it might relate to edifying the body, winning the lost, or in ministering to one's coworkers, close friends, and family.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The closest anyone might point to is 1 John 5:18,

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

If a believer has "let himself go" (as opposed to keeping himself), it may be construed that the wicked one begins to be able to touch him, as it were. And should that take place, in an assembly of saints, something more than simply "out of hand" might take place.

Again, conjecture only.

Well, in the book of Job we see that it wasnt that God put Job in the hands of Satan, but that Job had broken his own hedge.

Satan brought up the hedge and God merely states the obvious,"He is in thine hand."

It doesnt say that God dropped the hedge, God just stated the obvious.

Job broke his hedge through fear, it says in Job 3:25-26 25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

26 I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.



Yes we can step out of the protection of God and the enemy can be touch us not because God is unfaithful or God sics the enemy on us.

James says"In Him is no darkness, neither is there shadow of turning."

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think you make a valid point.

I've seen things in churches that I thought were demonic. For example, people barking like dogs, walking around the room on all fours making cow sounds, hooting like owls, and laughing hysterically as "the spirit" (an unseen force) comes over them. I'd agree with casting whatever spirit of chaos is inspiring these behaviors.

But you're right. When it comes to the gifts of the Spirit, sincere individuals can use them improperly. When a gift is used improperly, it isn't a demonic manifestation. It is a circumstance that might just require some basic teaching and training.

Based on my studies these gifts can be defined as follows:

Speaking Gifts:

1.) Gift of Prophesy - The impartation of the ability to speak and/or deliver a message directly from God concerning a spiritual reality or situation in the past, present, or future ("Thus saith the LORD..."). It is also the ability to declare a thing using authority from God, and it come to pass ("I prophesy healing into the lives of God's people, in the name of Jesus!").
2.) Gift of Tongues - The impartation of the ability to speak a message directly from God "in the Spirit" or to supernaturally "pray in the Spirit". 3.) Gift of Interpretation of Tongues - The impartation of the ability to "interpret" (not translate) unknown tongues spoken through the "Gift of Tongues".

Revelatory Gifts:

1.) Word of Knowledge - The impartation of knowledge and/or information pertaining to a person, place, thing, situation, or chain of events that the gift holder could not have known by any natural means.
2.) Word of Wisdom - Divine wisdom or insight about a situation that is delivered straight from God.
3.) Discernment of Spirits - The ability to supernaturally know the motive of a human spirit or to discern the presence and nature of spiritual beings (angels or demons).

Power Gifts:

1.) Gift of Faith - The impartation of supernatural faith that defies all logic in a given, seemingly hopeless, situation or circumstance.
2.) Gifts of Healing - The impartation of the power to heal various maladies in the body, soul, or spirit.
3.) Gift of Miracles - The impartation of the power to pray and have prayers answered, even if the outcome requires supernatural means that defy the laws of nature.

When operating in the Spiritual gifts, we have to consider another provision of the Holy Spirit, "visions". I believe visions can reveal things about the past, the present, or the future. A vision might also reveal a previously unseen or misunderstood spiritual truth or reality. In addition, any of the Revelatory Gifts can be communicated via a vision. Based on my studies of the Scriptures, visions can come in at least five different ways. The five ways one might experience a vision are:

Visionary Dreams - A visionary experience while asleep or unconscious. The individual having this type of vision might be a participant or a passive observer during the vision.

Inner Vision - A visionary experience while awake. It might seem like a daydream, or it might be of such an intensity that it commands one's full attention.

Open Heavens Vision - A visionary experience wherein the individual having the vision experiences the vision as one looking into a what has, is, or will transpire as the vision plays out before them. It can be very real, like watching a movie that appears to be playing in thin air.

Panoramic Vision - A visionary experience wherein the individual who is having the vision experiences the vision as though they are a part of it as it transpires all around them.

Spiritual Vision - A visionary experience wherein the one who is having the vision is caught up out of their body and is spiritually translated to another location or even Heaven (or perhaps the "realm of spirit") to experience the vision and even interact with angels or the Lord Himself.

I believe that those who walk in the prophetic will have some rather deep experiences in these things. Those who hear the Holy Spirit communicate to them through a type of impression or inner hearing are experiencing the "prophetic anointing". Those who see visions and have visionary experiences are experiencing the "seer anointing". Prophets "hear" and tell. Seers "see" and tell. Not all prophets are seers. However, all seers are prophets.

I don't believe that any of these giftings are "demonic". They are genuine manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the church. However, those who experience these gifts must be taught what these gifts are, how to activate this power of the Holy Spirit, how to allow these gifts to flow, and how to use them properly in one's daily life as it might relate to edifying the body, winning the lost, or in ministering to one's coworkers, close friends, and family.

Torben references the barking and mooing and "Holy Laughter" stuff and has some interesting takes on it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=3037s&v=sgVncKfu3hM

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The closest anyone might point to is 1 John 5:18,

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

If a believer has "let himself go" (as opposed to keeping himself), it may be construed that the wicked one begins to be able to touch him, as it were. And should that take place, in an assembly of saints, something more than simply "out of hand" might take place.

Again, conjecture only.

Sounds like John is saying the believer keeps himself and does not sin, not that a believer can "let himself go" and then foam at the mouth in church.

Honestly, I think we just have a modern day version of superstition and attraction to scary boo stories. I noticed in this thread not one example in the Bible of a church meeting being interrupted by demonic manifestations of overly loud tongues.

What do people think will be the end result of telling the church "some tongues and prophesyings are demonic"? People will be afraid to allow themselves to be used, and all the gifts will soon be limited to the performers on the platform, where they will all mysteriously confirm the need to put more money in the offering plate.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Sounds like John is saying the believer keeps himself and does not sin, not that a believer can "let himself go" and then foam at the mouth in church.

Honestly, I think we just have a modern day version of superstition and attraction to scary boo stories. I noticed in this thread not one example in the Bible of a church meeting being interrupted by demonic manifestations of overly loud tongues.

What do people think will be the end result of telling the church "some tongues and prophesyings are demonic"? People will be afraid to allow themselves to be used, and all the gifts will soon be limited to the performers on the platform, where they will all mysteriously confirm the need to put more money in the offering plate.

I think that is a poorly constructed straw man argument when we are instructed to "try the spirits and see if they be of God." I am in no way supporting cessationism and dont believe that exercising discernment and setting error to truth will result in some sort of demon/witch hunt.

[jediwill83]

Furthermore, there is a witness in the Spirit when the tongues are of God and why would God be using two vessels at the same time talking over one another in the same congregation?

In my experience, the original speaker was our song leader at the time...sweet country lady that sang her heart out but not with alot of skill.

She began to sing in tongues in the most beautiful voice with ranges she could not normally hit with perfect pitch and perfect vibrato...there was a HEAVY accompaniment of the Spirit that had me weeping....and then the other person started up....loud, out of place...totally overpowering the original speaker. The spirit behind that was NOT the spirit behind the first....same 7 syllables over and over. Until the first tongues stopped.

Do I believe that of he was confronted that he would go all "Linda Blair?" NO...I believe once it was confronted and it was revealed to be out of order than that spirit could no longer function as intended after exposure.

I have talked to other ministers with much experience and when they confront it and stop it, later they have had the people come and apologize and thank them, almost like they knew something was off but they couldnt break off the behavior.

[peter83]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Sounds like John is saying the believer keeps himself and does not sin, not that a believer can "let himself go" and then foam at the mouth in church.

Honestly, I think we just have a modern day version of superstition and attraction to scary boo stories. I noticed in this thread not one example in the Bible of a church meeting being interrupted by demonic manifestations of overly loud tongues.

What do people think will be the end result of telling the church "some tongues and prophesyings are demonic"? People will be afraid to allow themselves to be used, and all the gifts will soon be limited to the performers on the platform, where they will all mysteriously confirm the need to put more money in the offering plate.

Yes but there are some false tongues (when the flesh speaks) and some demonic too. I saw this with my own eyes!
Sure we dont have to panic our self over spiritual gifts but we should at least have some discerning of spirits.

Look those people speak in tongues (i dont say that is Satanic, but i just dont believe is from God too.)
look after 3:33

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

I think that is a poorly constructed straw man argument when we are instructed to "try the spirits and see if they be of God." I am in no way supporting cessationism and dont believe that exercising discernment and setting error to truth will result in some sort of demon/witch hunt.

Trying the spirits has to do with testing and identifying false prophets who speak error. This can be settled easily by simply posting the scriptures that say what you are saying.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What do people think will be the end result of telling the church "some tongues and prophesyings are demonic"? People will be afraid to allow themselves to be used, and all the gifts will soon be limited to the performers on the platform, where they will all mysteriously confirm the need to put more money in the offering plate.

Good point.