Apostoic worship??

[Aquila]

We're Pentecostal in our spiritual heritage. How did we come so far as to be nearly superstitious in our fear of "feelings" and personal "experiences" in the Spirit???

I say, get out of the boat. Learn to walk on the water. Sure, you might stumble and stagger a bit at first. You might find yourself sinking up to your knees at first. The Lord might have to reach down and pull you up at first. But get out there. Only through constant practice will we grow into a spiritual maturity that turns doctrine into the foundation for personal experience.

I believe that the doctrines of the Bible are there to become foundations for our personal experiences with God. If we only focus on doctrine, we become like one who polishes the foundation every day, but refuses to build upon it. And here's something else I've noticed. Those who do not move forward and allow doctrine to become the foundation of personal experience often become stale in their faith. Their knowledge of doctrine then graduates into a rather divisive form of "heresy hunting". It isn't healthy.

Let us not allow our knowledge and adoration of doctrine become such a focus that, due to our own lack of personal experience with God, we begin to use that head knowledge to destroy those who are daring to launch out into deeper spiritual waters to experience God for themselves. Let us allow doctrine to be the foundation... the foundation of a very real and personal experience of the Spirit's abiding reality.

[Michael The Disciple]

Aquila

I said all that to say this... personally experiencing God in our minds and emotions is a part of having a personal relationship with Him. It isn't enough to only know the relationship others had with Him thousands of years ago as found in Scripture, we must know Him ourselves, personally.

Amen Bro.

[n david]

We've had our disagreements, but I agree with Esaias on the ihop trance music mess. I've posted several times in various threads the connection ihop and their ilk have with catholic mysticism and new age junk. It's trash. It's connected to the occult and mysticism.

If you're offended by that, oh well.

[Aquila]

Here's something else that irks me about those who criticize forms of worship and experiencing God. They often take the side of the enemies of Pentecost.

For example, I've mentioned soaking prayer and contemplative prayer and how I've been blessed by it. I know a brother who printed out all these articles condemning soaking prayer and contemplative prayer and sent them to me. These articles talked about how these practices put emphasis on the individual experiencing the "mystical" and how this is a subjective spirituality that is alien to the Scriptures, blah, blah, blah.

I had to point out... that the authors of these articles say the very same thing about those who have experienced speaking with tongues, visions, prophetic utterances, etc.! Why would I want to heed an article condemning soaking prayer by the reprobate, John MacArthur, a man who doesn't even believe that speaking in tongues, visions, prophetic utterances, etc., are real or possible today???

Now, I'm not saying that every "manifestation" seen in charismatic churches is of God. So please don't imply that I support walking on all fours and barking like a dog as the Spirit gives "at-a-boys". This is where practicing our spiritual discernment is important. We can discern if something is of God or not based on what the Scriptures teach and based on the fruit of the experience. Such sensational rubbish seen in so many charismatic churches often produces shallow, carnal, biblically ignorant Christians whose faith is entirely built on subjective personal experience. On the flip side, those who have made an idol out of doctrine to the point of questioning all subjective spiritual experiences often produces arrogant, cold, emotionless, and critical "heresy hunters". There has to be a balance. Doctrine should be a foundation for our more subjective experiences in God. Doctrine should be the yard stick by which those experiences are measured. However, this in no way means that we are never to seek or have these experiences.

I'll never forget the first time I interpreted tongues. I had been praying for maybe weeks that God would allow me to serve the body through interpreting an utterance. I felt drawn to it. It was like an obsession. I read the verses on interpreting tongues over and over again. I watched and prayed that my eyes and ears be opened when a brother would interpret a tongue in a church service. I so wanted to experience this. I wanted it so bad, I felt like I was about to give birth to a baby or something.

Then the time came...

During an altar call an utterance in tongues broke out and was spoken through our pastor. The brother who normally interpreted the tongues wasn't there that night. And so there was this pregnant silence over the congregation. The utterance broke forth again, but with more force. I began to feel these butterflies in my stomach and I instantly knew... I was to give the interpretation.

I expected to hear the translation of the utterance fill my mind. I expected to somehow know what the syllables spoken meant. But it didn't happen that way. A tidal wave of emotion overwhelmed me as the gift of the Spirit was opened to me to interpret. It was almost like I was "feeling" what God was "feeling", I was "feeling" what God desired to say to the people. I often use the word "impression" to explain this experience. I was "feeling" the mind of God being impressed upon me. The words didn't just start flowing out my mouth. Though I could "feel" what God desired to express to the people... I had to open up my mouth and put it into words.

I was afraid. What if I was out of line? What if I was wrong? What if I looked stupid? What if others judged me? What if people would think that I think I'm a big somebody while I know I'm not? All these emotions came flooding in along side this deep impression from the Holy Spirit.

The utterance rang out again a third time, the pastor was weeping as though he too was longing to hear God deliver a Word to the church.

That's when I decided... I'd rather be wrong, out of place, or laughed at than fail God in this moment. So I opened my mouth with a loud, "Thus saith the LORD..." As I spoke, I was trembling. But it all began to flow from my lips, like a child confessing something pent up inside them for years. As the impressions flowed through me, I gave them words based on the best of my ability. Various phrases and biblical themes filled my mind, they were ablaze with life and vitality. It was almost like the Scripture provided the prophetic language from which to pull very words of the "interpretation".

As I experienced this, I was also analyzing it in my head. I discovered that an utterance of only 35 seconds can have an interpreted meaning that lasts 5 whole minutes. Or an utterance could be 35 seconds long and have only a 15 second interpretation. It is an "interpretation"... not a "translation". The utterance has a "meaning" not a "translation". Interpretation has to do with revealing the meaning of the utterance through the vehicle of the prophetic language of Scripture. And so, it goes without saying, if you wish to be used in interpretation of tongues, you would do well to know the Scriptures. The language of Scripture is almost like a decoder from which to pull words and phrases that properly reveal the "meaning" of something like the syllables , "Etee, tee-tee, ah-tayloh, La-la-la-la, ma-ma-miki, THO-HONDA". There is no "translation" of these sounds. There is only a "meaning" and that "meaning" must be "interpreted". As the last of the interpretation poured from my lips, I fell on my face and began weeping. God actually used me in this gift. I finally experienced it for myself. The people responded with prayer, and some chose to go to the altar. The pastor worshipped for a couple minutes and began altar work.

I was trembling for maybe the next 20 minutes! LOL But to my surprise, after the pastor closed the service... nobody acted like I was out of place. Nobody laughed at me, acted like I was out of place, or like I did anything wrong. It was as though nobody noticed or cared that it was me, they only wanted a Word from the Lord. Which is the way it should be!!! No one patted me on the back or congratulated me for interpreting for the first time. Sure, I felt like it was one of the most special days of my spiritual journey, but most moved forward with getting things ready and preparing to go home or to go out to eat. One brother, the usher captain, a deeply spiritual and prayerful man, looked at me as I walked by him and smiled. As he smiled, he winked and gave me a thumbs up. I just clumsily smiled and pointed upwards, giving God all the glory, as I walked by. Wouldn't you know it though, that single act of encouragement made my night. I was so afraid I messed up somehow. But for some reason that man's single gesture put me at ease and let me know that I was in the will of God.

That was the first time I was used in that manner. It felt good to step out of the boat and onto the waves.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

We've had our disagreements, but I agree with Esaias on the ihop trance music mess. I've posted several times in various threads the connection ihop and their ilk have with catholic mysticism and new age junk. It's trash. It's connected to the occult and mysticism.

If you're offended by that, oh well.

I can't say anything about IHOP's "trance music" because I don't know what it is or what people are doing with it.

However, I do know that I've been deeply blessed through soaking prayer. I've turned on some soft worship music, laid down on my couch, folded my hands, and just focused on breathing or on a single word. I like the name of Jesus. Sometimes I love to extend it as I say it or think it, "Jeeeesus". Sometimes, it's a phrase, "I loooove you, Lord." On other occasions it's, "Hallelujah" (more like, "Haaaaleluuuujah."). Thoughts come and go. I don't try to grab them or stop them. But after some time... my mind stops reeling. It is amazing how downright NOISY our minds can become. As my mind stops buzzing with what I call background thoughts, or "static", I begin to feel a very deep calm. Soon, you actually get to sense what it is to just... "be". And while just "being" you also begin to realize the joy with just "being" with God in that very moment. You realize, the present moment is all that matters. Not what happened yesterday, or what you think will happen tomorrow. Now. The present moment. It's almost shocking how much of our mind is either focused on what has happened in the past at work, in church, in our families, in our marriages... or what we think will happen in the future at work, in church, in our families, or in our marriages. I don't know about others, but I found that I was spending nearly 80% of my thought life either in the past, the future, or some mindless pursuit like Facebook. Very rarely was I ever just in the... now.

At that moment, the calm is serene. You "feel" God so strongly enveloping you. It's like when you just hold someone you love, or when they just hold you. No words need to be said. Just being held is all that matters, and is all that is necessary. In fact, words wouldn't add a thing to the experience. They would only cheapen it. And as you end your time of soaking prayer and go about your day, that sense of His presence lingers. Sometimes, I've fallen asleep. lol But it is one of the most restful naps I have ever felt. Sometimes it is as though you are made more aware of His presence in the now. And sometimes it is almost as though He were radio active (for lack of a better word), His presence lingering on you from your embrace like some fine fragrance.

The funny thing is, I've seen this very same thing in prayer rooms all my life. In churches, at conferences, etc. It's just nobody called it "soaking" prayer. But we're like fearful sheep. Somebody dares to coin a phrase to help draw distinction to an element of understanding and we all freak out and start lobbing heresy accusations. Good grief. So what? Someone has decided to call it "soaking prayer". What, are we to forbid just soaking in God's presence? Would it be more permissible if we called it prostrate in God's presence, "prostration prayer"? Or what if we called it, "Basking Prayer"??? LOL

Regardless of what one wishes to call it, it has been in Pentecost for generations.

And trances... my goodness. My first pastor, Rev. Huss Shearer, taught on "trances". If you've ever experienced a trance, you'd know that a trance is "the crossroads where visions are experienced". He pulled from this passage:

Acts 10:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

My goodness, that was an awesome sermon. Pastor Shearer encouraged us to unplug the telephone, go into our closets and lock the door, and seek the presence of God until we too experienced a, "trance". He explained that it is there where we can hear, firsthand, the voice of God, receive visions, and revelations.

Look, all "soaking prayer" is, is the practice of silencing the mind enough to simply enjoy and experience the "presence" of God. I've often said when I get to Heaven, I'm going to probably just lay at Jesus' feet for 10,000 years or so, just enjoying the fact that He's right there. Dear God, some of y'all would have me thrown out of Heaven for that, because that's a form of soaking prayer. LOL In the King James Bible, entering the presence of God and praying until you silence the mind to receive from Him is called, a "trance". Oh, and "contemplative prayer", all that is, is focusing on a truth, verse, phrase, name, or teaching of Scripture... while soaking in God's presence... until you understand it more fully, personally, or unlock deeper dimensions of its reality to apply to your own life. In the King James, they call this, "meditation".

Then there's the term, "mystic". It's based on the Greek word "μυστήριον" (mustérion). In the New Testament, it is the counsels of God, once hidden but now revealed in the Gospel or some fact concerning it. It is the Christian revelation generally, or particular truths or details of the Christian revelation. Those who intermeddleth (Proverbs 18:1) with the "mustérion", are called, "mystics". The "mystics" of old were known to experience spiritual ecstasy, trances, unintelligible utterances, visions, angelic visitations, etc., and they were openly called "mystics" by the historical church. Some of these individuals were even considered "Saints" worthy of veneration by the Catholic and Orthodox churches. But that's only half the story. Most were considered eccentrics, heretics, blasphemers, and occultists when they were alive...and so they were often persecuted and rejected by their contemporary "theologians". However, they are regarded as great men and women of faith today by those who persecuted them. If you are able to read between the lines, many of the so called "mystics" experienced experiences similar to what we call the "baptism of the Holy Ghost", today. It doesn't take one long to realize that many of these look very much like they were the "Pentecostals" of the Middle Ages. In fact, if you could time travel and bring many of these "mystics" to the present, they'd understand the nature of the utterances, prophesies, interpretations, visions, etc. that are common in our Pentecostal churches more than they would the boring and lifeless liturgy of most Catholic churches today. Personally, I think that we Pentecostals are the "mystics" of the hour.

But there is a problem. Modern Christians function more on fear than experience. They'd rather curse the unknown depths of the Holy Spirit than dive in. It justifies their "fear" and "insecurity" with stepping out of their comfortable little boat and onto the water to supernaturally walk with Jesus. They hear terms like "contemplative" and act like frightened rabbits. Or they hear terms like "soaking" or "mystic" or "trance" and totally freak out. Bro... those terms, and/or their meanings, are recorded in the King James Bible. They are older than the New Age movement. In fact, Christians being called "mystics" on account of their spiritual experiences while in prayer predates the New Age use of the term by almost a thousand years. The King James Bible used the word "trance" hundreds of years before the Transcendentalism of the mid to late 1800's.

It's almost like we've failed to realize that the New Age movement has borrowed these things from us to fill the void of its truthless stupidity. Let me tell you, if you're not a Holy Spirit filled Pentecostal today, you can never know the fullness of what a "trance" really is. You might rub a crystal and daze off into a daydream... but honey... you ain't going to get a bona fide vision from Heaven.

Then there is the treacherous reality of marketing to Christian readers...

Look, if I wrote a book titled, "The Blessing of the Trance" (based on how the word "trance" is used in the King James Bible), you and I know that most Christians would freak out and start throwing garlic, wooden crosses, and silver bullets at me. But if I titled it, "The Blessing of Soaking Prayer", they might be more inclined to read what I'm trying to share. Or if I wrote a book, "The Joys of Christian Meditation" (as the term "meditation" is used in the King James Bible), some overly excited self appointed heresy hunter would claim that I'm teaching Buddhism. But if I call it, "The Joys of Contemplative Prayer", more folks might be willing to read what I have to say and give it a chance. Frankly, I think it is a shame that Christian authors have to re-word things just to try to open people up to looking into long forgotten Christian practices that are found in Scripture.

Then you have the detractors. They are mostly stuffy old Calvinists who believe that speaking in tongues is the Kundalini spirit. They will curse and condemn any spiritual practice that opens one up to personally experience God or the supernatural realities experienced by men and women throughout the Scriptures. And they make MONEY by writing books condemning Pentecostals, Charismatics, Mystics, trances, meditation, soaking prayer, contemplative prayer, faith healing, visions, etc. Let me ask you this... why are PENTECOSTALS taking their queues from these losers??? LOL

Have you noticed a disinterest in personal spiritual experiences, gifts of the Spirit, visions, etc. within Pentecost? I have. We're listening to all these "respectable" Reformed theologians... and ceasing to be Spirit Filled Pentecostals who are on the cutting edge of the move of God, that walk in the supernatural, and challenge dead and lifeless religion. We're losing the power and trading it in for their Reformed "intellectualism" and "systematic theology". Monergism is already starting to make it's way into our camp. Monergism is a real devil. It's certainly more dangerous than "soaking prayer". But you'll be respected for caving in and believing monergism. But you catch fire from all sides if you seek to prayerfully "soak" in God's presence? Something is wrong. Something is backwards.

We need to start focusing on digging into the Holy Spirit and the supernatural realities in this thing... or we'll one day be nothing more than a spiritually lifeless pseudo-Calvinistic bunch of condemnatory heresy hunters.

Remember, we're Apostolic Pentecostals. The supernatural and spiritual realities of the Bible should be our specialty.

[n david]

You do what you do, Aquila. I've read enough to show me the root of contemplative and soaking junk is not based in scripture, but in eastern and catholic mysticism. But go ahead and chant or focus on your words if that makes you feel better.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

You do what you do, Aquila. I've read enough to show me the root of contemplative and soaking junk is not based in scripture, but in eastern and catholic mysticism. But go ahead and chant or focus on your words if that makes you feel better.

But what you've read is anti-Pentecostal anti-Spirit Filled rubbish.

It's not about how it makes anyone feel. It's simply about silencing our buzzing minds, which are reeling from our hectic and crazy work-a-day world, and learning to simply rest and be in God's healing and empowering presence.

Here's what's funny about your position. If I described how I chose to just lay prostrate on the floor and wait on God, desiring only to feel God's healing and empowering presence... you'd not think a single negative thing about it. But that's what "soaking prayer" is. LOL

The reality of this disagreement is that you've allowed the unfamiliar coined phrase, and the opinions of theological bubble heads who don't even believe in visions or speaking in other tongues, to get in the way of understanding the essence of what is being discussed.

So, here's the question:

Would you condemn me if I were to say that I'm going to lay down on my couch after work, play some soft instrumental worship music, clear my head, and simply seek to experience God's healing presence?

Or, would you condemn me if I were to say that I'm going to lay down on my couch after work and adore the name of Jesus while considering all that it means to me?

If not, you've been hoodwinked.

How dare we learn to wait upon the LORD?! LOL

Isaiah 40:31
But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Psalm 46:10
Be still, and know that I am God:

Those are the two verses I'll be contemplating when I enter contemplative prayer tonight ('tis the Sabbath, ). Eliminate all distractions for about 40 minutes to an hour. Dim the lights. Cast all your cares from the day and any cares you might have for tomorrow upon the Lord by releasing them to him. You can imagine selecting them and letting them go as you inhale and exhale, you can speak them out softly to Him, or you can release them by simply opening or raising your hands in surrender. Thank Him for always being there, even when you're unable to immediately sense Him. Offer your personalized words of worship and adoration. What is He to you right now? Is He your king? Is He your Father? Is He your healer? Is He your defender? Is He your teacher? Identify what you need Him to be for you right now, and praise Him for being all that you could ever need. There is no script. Use your own words out loud or quietly in your heart. Enter a relaxed and prayerful state of mind. Feel free to have prepared some soft and relaxing worship music, burn a soothing aromatic candle, take a hot bath and lay down (or do all three). Whatever you have to do to relax and balance your entire being (body, soul, and spirit). Read these verses slowly. With eyes closed, picture any imagery used by the writers in each text. Reflect on the statements made. Contemplate their context. Contemplate what these verses meant to the original readers. Then contemplate their implications and how they might apply to you. Contemplate how they might help you be conformed into the image and likeness of Christ. As the realization of spiritual truth dawns upon you, hold on to it and contemplate it. Own it. Receive it. Allow the living Word of God to fill your mind. Allow it to saturate you to the core of your being, your spirit. Focus on this truth. Seek to remember and practice this truth when necessary. Welcome to contemplative prayer.

Scary New Age stuff, huh?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Those are the two verses I'll be contemplating when I enter contemplative prayer tonight (tis the Sabbath, ). Eliminate all distractions for about 40 minutes to an hour. Enter a relaxed and prayerful state of mind. Feel free to put on some relaxing music, burn a soothing, aromatic candle, take a hot bath and lay down. Whatever you have to do to relax and balance your entire being (body, soul, and spirit). Read these verses slowly. With eyes closed, picture any imagery used by the writers in each text. Reflect on the statements made. Contemplate their context. Contemplate what these verses meant to the original readers. Then contemplate their implications and how they might apply to you. Contemplate how they might help you be conformed into the image and likeness of Christ. Welcome to contemplative prayer.

"Be still and know" David wrote is not as you described above.

You're reading too much Deepak Chopra.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

"Be still and know" David wrote is not as you described above.

You're reading too much Deepak Chopra.

Be still, do not worry, be anxious for nothing, do not fret, and know that God has got this and is in full control is David... that quack "Chopra" is a nobody trying to coopt the work of King David to sell his pathetic books. God Himself inspired David to write the text to convey this meaning to us.

I can honestly say, I've never read anything by Chopra. He's not even Christian.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Be still, do not worry, be anxious for nothing, do not fret, and know that God has got this and is in full control is David... that quack "Chopra" is a nobody trying to coopt the work of King David to sell his pathetic books. God Himself inspired David to write the text to convey this meaning to us.

I can honestly say, I've never read anything by Chopra. He's not even Christian.

Hey, but he could be looking our way! lol