"Beards are sin!" False doctrine?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

or walking around with your pants down.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Obviously we see the ministry/platform guidelines differently. You appear to see them as doctrine - something taught or preached from the pulpit. That isn't my experience.

I'll share an example of my most recent experience as a member of the pastoral advisory board and worship leader:

(I don't have a copy of the guidelines we created and may have forgotten some points...)

This experience is from a church which was not UPC, but was Apostolic, just not affiliated with any organization. The Pastor of this church had previously been licensed - first with the Apostolic Assembly, and, just prior to starting this church, the UPCI. His experience with both organizations led him to decide he didn't want to be affiliated with either.

When the church first began, we had musicians in ripped jeans and even a drummer who came one Sunday in Bermuda shorts and flip flops. It was after this we decided to institute guidelines/expectations for those involved in ministry/platform.

So now Jim Billybob Johnson wants to play the guitar. As someone who will be representing the church, we created set of guidelines which included dress, appearance and conduct.

The first part was primarily background information about salvation, previous church involvement, etc.

The second part included guidelines about dress and appearance. Like it or not, we didn't want Jim Billybob Johnson to show up with ripped jeans or shorts and flip flops.

Could we point to a chapter and verse? No. Is it a sin to wear flip flops? I hope not! Though I've worn them less as I've grown older. Nor is it a sin to wear shorts, IMO.

The guidelines also said Jim Billybob was to keep his hair short and not bleached, or in some wild style (mohawk, faux-hawk, etc.).

Again, can't really point to a chapter or verse other than "it's a shame for a man to have long hair." Nothing specific about styling the hair or dying it.

It also stated JB Johnson was to be either clean shaven or keep his beard/mustache trimmed and neat.

It stated he was to wear business casual clothing, a suit and tie was not required for the musicians. Men were required to wear dress slacks with a collared shirt - either a dress polo or buttoned shirt. Women were required to wear a dress/skirt of appropriate length, not to be above the knee when seated, including a slit. The women's blouse/shirt should have a modest neckline and sleeve length.

No chapter and verse.

JB Johnson was not allowed to wear jewelry, such as a necklace or bracelet or ring other than a wedding ring.

No chapter and verse.

Besides the dress and appearance, the third part included guidelines of conduct.

Obviously, we expected Jim Billybob Johnson to conduct himself as a Christian should. We expected Jim Billybob Johnson to have daily prayer and devotion. In fact, as a worship team we all had a Bible devotion/reading plan we followed together. The guideline also set an expectation that JB Johnson would choose one day a week to fast and set aside extra time in the day to pray.

No chapter and verse.

Again, I may have missed some details, but this is what I can remember off the top of my head.

This was to be signed by Jim Billybob Johnson and both myself and the Pastor would approve it. We asked that JB Johnson and anyone else in ministry commit to a period of at least six months, after which they would sign a new guideline/commitment form.

I'm not against platform guidelines. If you're in an institutional church, you might need them.

I've been house churching now for between 6 or seven years. We met in common clothes and never even had issue with facial hair. So, the entire platform performance dynamic didn't exist. We would pray, sing, pray more, sing. We'd share a meal, pass the bread and the cup. The elder would share a passage, some insight, and we'd discuss it. We'd confess sin and pray for one another. Often fellowship extended long after midnight, with kids crashed on couches and in the floor.

Anyone could bring a passage, insight, song, or poem. In Scott's house church, sometimes tongues and interpretation was present. Sometimes word of knowledge or word of wisdom. Sometimes we felt a healing anointing, and sought God for healing. We shared visions, dreams, and impressions we received from God. We talked about life, work, and people we were trying to reach.

The Sunday show is just not how I see church.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'm not against platform guidelines. If you're in an institutional church, you might need them.

I've been house churching now for between 6 or seven years. We met in common clothes and never even had issue with facial hair. So, the entire platform performance dynamic didn't exist. We would pray, sing, pray more, sing. We'd share a meal, pass the bread and the cup. The elder would share a passage, some insight, and we'd discuss it. We'd confess sin and pray for one another. Often fellowship extended long after midnight, with kids crashed on couches and in the floor.

Anyone could bring a passage, insight, song, or poem. In Scott's house church, sometimes tongues and interpretation was present. Sometimes word of knowledge or word of wisdom. Sometimes we felt a healing anointing, and sought God for healing. We shared visions, dreams, and impressions we received from God. We talked about life, work, and people we were trying to reach.

The Sunday show is just not how I see church.

That sounds like group.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

That sounds like group.

Lol

We had good group. Lol

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by n david

If a church board or Pastor wanted to set ministry/platform guidelines stating rings were disallowed, only long-sleeved white shirts were permitted under a suit jacket, that is their choice to do so. They aren't required to show chapter and verse. It's their preference, their guideline. Those who don't like it can either not join that church ministry or go somewhere else.

What's so hard to understand about this?

Yes they have a right to do that, but what is hard to understand about that is that they condemn those who do not follow their rules as lost without hope.

They are elevating their rules as equal to the word of God, and that is a much worse sin than any beard or rings. That is precisely the sin of the Pharisees, in that they equated their man made commandments as equal to the word of God. And Jesus condemned the Pharisees for that.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Yes they have a right to do that, but what is hard to understand about that is that they condemn those who do not follow their rules as lost without hope.

They are elevating their rules as equal to the word of God, and that is a much worse sin than any beard or rings. That is precisely the sin of the Pharisees, in that they equated their man made commandments as equal to the word of God. And Jesus condemned the Pharisees for that.

Amen

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by n david

Obviously we see the ministry/platform guidelines differently. You appear to see them as doctrine - something taught or preached from the pulpit. That isn't my experience.

I'll share an example of my most recent experience as a member of the pastoral advisory board and worship leader:

(I don't have a copy of the guidelines we created and may have forgotten some points...)

This experience is from a church which was not UPC, but was Apostolic, just not affiliated with any organization. The Pastor of this church had previously been licensed - first with the Apostolic Assembly, and, just prior to starting this church, the UPCI. His experience with both organizations led him to decide he didn't want to be affiliated with either.

When the church first began, we had musicians in ripped jeans and even a drummer who came one Sunday in Bermuda shorts and flip flops. It was after this we decided to institute guidelines/expectations for those involved in ministry/platform.

So now Jim Billybob Johnson wants to play the guitar. As someone who will be representing the church, we created set of guidelines which included dress, appearance and conduct.

The first part was primarily background information about salvation, previous church involvement, etc.

The second part included guidelines about dress and appearance. Like it or not, we didn't want Jim Billybob Johnson to show up with ripped jeans or shorts and flip flops.

Could we point to a chapter and verse? No. Is it a sin to wear flip flops? I hope not! Though I've worn them less as I've grown older. Nor is it a sin to wear shorts, IMO.

The guidelines also said Jim Billybob was to keep his hair short and not bleached, or in some wild style (mohawk, faux-hawk, etc.).

Again, can't really point to a chapter or verse other than "it's a shame for a man to have long hair." Nothing specific about styling the hair or dying it.

It also stated JB Johnson was to be either clean shaven or keep his beard/mustache trimmed and neat.

It stated he was to wear business casual clothing, a suit and tie was not required for the musicians. Men were required to wear dress slacks with a collared shirt - either a dress polo or buttoned shirt. Women were required to wear a dress/skirt of appropriate length, not to be above the knee when seated, including a slit. The women's blouse/shirt should have a modest neckline and sleeve length.

No chapter and verse.

JB Johnson was not allowed to wear jewelry, such as a necklace or bracelet or ring other than a wedding ring.

No chapter and verse.

Besides the dress and appearance, the third part included guidelines of conduct.

Obviously, we expected Jim Billybob Johnson to conduct himself as a Christian should. We expected Jim Billybob Johnson to have daily prayer and devotion. In fact, as a worship team we all had a Bible devotion/reading plan we followed together. The guideline also set an expectation that JB Johnson would choose one day a week to fast and set aside extra time in the day to pray.

No chapter and verse.

Again, I may have missed some details, but this is what I can remember off the top of my head.

This was to be signed by Jim Billybob Johnson and both myself and the Pastor would approve it. We asked that JB Johnson and anyone else in ministry commit to a period of at least six months, after which they would sign a new guideline/commitment form.

Just curious. Give me your opinion of this passage in light of the post above.

Jas.2

[1] My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
[2] For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
[3] And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
[4] Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
[5] Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
[6] But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
[7] Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
[8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
[9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin.

Take your time and break it down verse by verse. Please.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

This isn't even a matter of "twisting" scripture...there is literally no scripture to twist.

Ha ha ha, this is a great statement.

[FlamingZword]

OK let me explain something about the differences between the Army or a business requiring men to shave.

I understand perfectly the Army reason, since I was a soldier. we shaved our beard because we needed to wear gas masks that would protect us against a chemical or biological attack.

Now a business may require people to shave to hold employment because it is the regulations, but the business does not tell a person that if they do not shave they will be eternally lost. and really a business does not care if while you are in vacation you grow a beard like Aaron the priest.

The big difference is that many ministers condemn all men who have beards as being in sin, even if they do not belong to their church. to them anyone who does not shave is not saved and that is judging.

If beard was a sin, then it would be listed as a sin somewhere in the scriptures after all most men grow a beard, it is a natural occurrence for millennia, it would have quite easy for Moses or any of the prophets, Apostles or even Jesus to take a second and condemn beards in just one verse, but the fact that there is not one single verse that condemns beards is a clear indication that they never saw nothing wrong with them.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

OK let me explain something about the differences between the Army or a business requiring men to shave.

I understand perfectly the Army reason, since I was a soldier. we shaved our beard because we needed to wear gas masks that would protect us against a chemical or biological attack.

Now a business may require people to shave to hold employment because it is the regulations, but the business does not tell a person that if they do not shave they will be eternally lost. and really a business does not care if while you are in vacation you grow a beard like Aaron the priest.

The big difference is that many ministers condemn all men who have beards as being in sin, even if they do not belong to their church. to them anyone who does not shave is not saved and that is judging.

If beard was a sin, then it would be listed as a sin somewhere in the scriptures after all most men grow a beard, it is a natural occurrence for millennia, it would have quite easy for Moses or any of the prophets, Apostles or even Jesus to take a second and condemn beards in just one verse, but the fact that there is not one single verse that condemns beards is a clear indication that they never saw nothing wrong with them.

Amen! And GOD created and designed the beard to be on a mans face. They are fighting against God!