Should we teach others to rebel against standards?

[Michael The Disciple]

Is Jonathan Alvear the husband of Sister Alvear?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Ok I just was listening to this this is why no one is changing facial hair standards. It's been said here already but he says it 30:30-34:15 it explains it all. But Michael he has a real thing to say about the idea of the Acts 22:17 people ( not then in particular, but the spirit involved there) from 38:45-40:17. Really this whole message is good like the other one. He's speaking truth. All Apostolics should at least listen to 38:45 until the end. But I recommend the whole thing.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

I think we need to slow down and look at this.

The Apostle Paul wrote to the church...

2 Thessalonians 2:15
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

Now, FREEZE FRAME.

What were the traditions THEY had been taught by word, or epistle???

By the Second and Third Centuries, the churches had begun to accept pagan holidays and other methods for worship into Christianity (traditions of men). This happened because they had, by that time, forgotten their roots and from where they had come. They would not have had any problem determining the proper course of action for the NT church if they would have studied the Scriptures and the living examples of Jesus and the example and writings of the Apostles (Paul, Peter, John, James, etc.).

So, what were these "traditions" that were common in the NT church???

- Preaching that one must be born of the water and of the Spirit (Acts 2:38).
- Teaching the Apostles doctrine as they gathered regularly in the temple and broke bread from house to house. (Acts 2:46; 5:42)
- The Lord's Supper (may have been the central theme of the Christian manner of observing Passover). (I Corinthians 11:26; I Corinthians 5:8)
- Modesty in both attire and disposition. (I Timothy 2:9; I Peter 3:3-4)
- Men having short hair, women having long hair, with all subjection and modesty. (I Corinthians 11)
- Giving due honor to civil government and paying taxes. (Romans 13)
- The belief in working for one's living. (2 Thessalonians 3:9-11)
- Abstaining from things that involve idolatry, from sexual immorality, from meats not bled, from consuming blood. (Acts 15:19-21)
- Establishing elders. (Titus 1:5)
- Anointing the sick (James 5:14)
- Financially supporting struggling saints (1 Corinthians 16:1-3; 2 Corinthians 9:1-8)
- Financially supporting the ministry (1 Corinthians 9:8-12)

There may be other traditions that someone might want to consider. However, these are the primary traditions I see in the text upon a relatively quick observation. I don't believe that you'll find the prohibition of beards as a part of Apostolic tradition.

This would mean that... you've not strictly kept the very traditions of the early church that Paul was talking about... instead... you've the 20th Century traditions of man to the Apostolic truth of Scripture... and you're teaching that tradition as doctrine.

This verse indicts you... it doesn't support you.

Return to Apostolic traditions. Biblical traditions. Not the wonky 20th Century traditions of men in suits who demand that you keep their word like it's a Papal declaration.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Aquila, if you have an outward form of worship, but are not worshipping from the heart, then you are worshipping in vain. That was the problem that Matthew 15 was addressing, because there is nothing wrong with washing your hands.

Anyone who argues that Billy Graham or IHOP is possibly saved but Apostolics who are clean shaven are lost, just has an issue with mainstream apostolic churches that has nothing to do with beards really.

I think its your goal in life to discredit the UPC or other churches because you have deep seated issues.

At first it bothered me that you feel this way but I'm over it now.

You threw a lot of smoke at me... but you never truly answered the question.

Do you believe that teaching for doctrine the commandments of men is a "sin"???

Yes or no?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

To the degree we teach false doctrine we are in sin. YAH is very patient (for the most part) and desires that men submit to the Holy Spirit as he guides us into more truth. But like you say he doesnt seem to give "assurance" that we can in the end be saved if our doctrine is false.

Of course SOME of them will say all that matters is Acts 2:38 and Oneness. About anything else and they gives themselves a pass!

And interestingly enough, those who say that all that matters is Acts 2:38 and Oneness... will betray themselves by casting men out of their churches over facial hair, or deny them full fellowship within the body.

So, while they might say all that matters is Acts 2:38 and Oneness... they talk out both sides of their mouths and in practice deny that by teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Ok I just was listening to this this is why no one is changing facial hair standards. It's been said here already but he says it 30:30-34:15 it explains it all. But Michael he has a real thing to say about the idea of the Acts 22:17 people ( not then in particular, but the spirit involved there) from 38:45-40:17. Really this whole message is good like the other one. He's speaking truth. All Apostolics should at least listen to 38:45 until the end. But I recommend the whole thing.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

So, if a pastor or organization establishes a laser light show with smoke machines and interpretive dance as part of a church's Easter tradition... we're bound to keep that mess??? LOL

Like I said... all things should be grounded in the Word. The "traditions" Paul spoke of are the traditions of the early church... not the goofy traditions of men that were imposed on the body in the 20th Century. And not one tradition of the early church prohibits facial hair.

I'm blowing the whistle. "Out of bounds."

[Michael The Disciple]

I listened most of the video. Not every single minute but most of it. I find it interesting that he starts preaching out of 2 Thess. 2 which is about the post tribulation rapture and saying if you teach something else your deceived. He skips THAT PART...the true context of the chapter and goes into all kinds of OTHER ways one might be deceived.

The rest of the video is pretty much about standards throwing out beards as basically the doorway to sin and unrighteousness. NO SCRIPTURAL REFERENCE mind you. Lots about Apostolic Indentity.

Well to Paul Apostolic identity would have called for someone not to take what HE WROTE in 2 Thessalonians, calling out any idea of a pre trib rapture as deception and change it into preaching about various other topics.

But did the minister warn about the same deception Paul wrote of in the verses preceeding? Nope. Now I will say this and maybe I will be corrected. From what I thought I have read over the years the Alvears believe in the post trib rapture. For that they are to be praised.

So was this a convention of all post trib believers? If not where was the warning like Paul was giving the Thessalonians in chapter 2? Why were the pre tribs in attendance not rebuked as the men who were maybe wearing a beard? How is it men can make a non biblical "standard" more important than the doctrine of the second coming of Christ?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Aquila, if you have an outward form of worship, but are not worshipping from the heart, then you are worshipping in vain. That was the problem that Matthew 15 was addressing, because there is nothing wrong with washing your hands.

I've learned context doesn't matter. Verses are cherry-picked and misapplied in an attempt to back their argument.

[Michael The Disciple]

After mentioning that FOOLS are saying nothing in the Bible is against beards, he then goes on to condemn men wearing them by saying they will then attack all other standards. So its not a sin according to the Bible its just it OPENS THE DOOR TO SIN.

Now the fact that Jesus Christ and the apostles wore beards carrys no weight at all! If they had been in that convention they would not have been allowed to step foot on the "holy platform"! They would have been hurling insults against the creator and designer of the beards and the one who once set a "landmark" against trimming them.

About minute 42 after failing to provide a Biblical reason why beards are for "fools" he them makes a statement to the effect of a "theory" has to be proved by BIBLE, BIBLE. BIBLE!

Hmmm. Amen.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
Corrupt politicians.
Wall Street kings of greed.
CIA agents who overthrow governments and assasinate people.
Hollywood actors known for fornication and worldliness.

These all have something in common. They all wear suits!



Michael, this is a severely dramatic statement. Funny but dramatic. I believe people should be modest In apparel. There is cheap suits you know? I don't own a suit, I just wear button down and slacks. You missed the whole purpose of the quote of Martyn Ballestero. I quoted it for the part where he said: "However, in early Pentecost, especially in the white churches, there was a marked absence of beards. The beards seemed to disappear." And the other part where he said: "The Pentecostal scene was one of clean-shaven men for over 50 years."

That's what I've been saying, if it's been like that for 50 years who am I to come in, and tell them to change for me? What they are saying isn't immoral, their not telling you to sacrifice your children!!! I understand you feel that people are saying you have a demon because you have facial hair. Or that your rebellious because of it. I don't believe someone is rebellious for having it. But, I do believe if you go to a church that preaches against it, and you are going around to other people trying to get them to rebel against it that is rebellious. There's a root in a lot of this, that's the spirit of Absalom at work. If you can't take it, go to a church where it is accepted to have a facial hair. We all need to have a man of God though, because without that, who's going to call you out on your stuff?
__________________

It hasn't been like that in all Pentecostal churches.

The ones it was like that was because that is what they forced on the membership. But in the UPC it wasn't a written requirement.

In the bible it's not even mentioned.

So it's a leftover relic of a previous age and is a doctrine of man.

Stop forcing it on others

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

It hasn't been like that in all Pentecostal churches.

The ones it was like that was because that is what they forced on the membership. But in the UPC it wasn't a written requirement.

In the bible it's not even mentioned.

So it's a leftover relic of a previous age and is a doctrine of man.

Stop forcing it on others

No one is forcing it on anyone. People are just acting like life or death is in the power of the beard. I'm not for it or against it, it goes down to what you GOD APPOINTED MAN OF GOD says! Those words in all caps are important because everyone of them, is of equal importance.

All I'm saying is follow God's government over you. A man of God who won't compromise, is a plus because he's not going to compromise to cause a revival. He will not bend or break, anyone that will, you don't need a Pastor like that in the first place. The spirit of compromise is never satisfied. The topic of this subject had little to do with beards, but people made it about just that. Why, I don't know. Some not all of them, would be happy to see other things go too. Keep cutting stuff short, and before long we are following the light doctrine. And saying all baptisms are the same. And we get to the point where we are committing our life to Christ and signing a card! The UPC keeps platform standards though do they not?