Do we have to pay tithes?

[Amanah]

was looking through old threads on tithes and found this

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I am sadden some of you had such bad experiences with some pastors like someone quoted Ezk. 34 will get them. But since you have listed your complaints about preachers who evidently are more concerned about money than the ministry itself would you allow me to tell the other side?
In my years of pastoring we have slept in the church, driven automobiles we prayed would make it to the store, bought clothes at second hand stores. I have given my last dime to needy saints, bought their kids shoes & clothes, paid their way to youth camps, took folks to work when they had no car, cleared their walks of snow so the elderly would not fall. My wife has bathed the elderly saints, took thwm shopping and to the drug store and hospital, interupted our own plans to sit at hospitals all night long(many times without so much as a thank you).
Now for the church we have been janitors when some saints would know where the mop or broom is found at the church. If a need for the church came yes I have paid it gladly without burdening the saints and let my own personal needs go. If anyone had to tighten thier belt because giving was lean it wasn't the saints it was us. When revival offerings were low I made up the difference. When some 'forgot' their missionary pledges I made them up. When home missionaries were struggling yes I did without and gave to them. I have helped churches I will never see because there was a need out of my pocket. I have bought struggling preachers suits, shoes, their family's clothes. Fixed evangelist's trucks, trailers. Sent clothes to missionaries. Sold my own goods to saints to give preachers a decent offering.
I am not complaining. But am I suppose to be ashamed because now God has blessed me for being a giver? My cars are nicer, my home is comfortable, my clothes were not purchased at goodwill, I can eat a little better than McDonalds.
I can buy my wife a new dress ever now and then. And might even take a few days off and call it a vacation(though I could be called back anytime).
I have learned givers preachers and saints are blessed. I have yet to meet my first non-tither who claims to give Jesus all give 10%. They are tightwad and thieves and think of no one but themselves. The church could not operate normally much less have revival or support missionaries on what they give. Their 'tithes' is in boats, fishing and hunting gear, cars, homes, vacations, they tithe to themselves. If you had a million of them you could not operate a church on them. they are the same folks that are not faithful or float from place to place. Spiritual gipsies and hitchhickers letting someone else pay the gas.There would be no churches, camps, missions, evangelists. pastors if you was depending on them. They come when they want they are more faithful to their tv shows than they are to God. Then when they show up they want you to announce 'we are soooooooooooooooo blessed with their presence.'
So folks it ain't one sided. I will repent for all the money loving preachers who thnk they own the church and the saints if someone will apologize for all the money loving saints who wander from pillar to post with their hand out mooching spiritual things because they don't have a cent invested in it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

was looking through old threads on tithes and found this

[Amanah]

found this also, just looking at the other side of the story

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

1. I do believe the tithe is for support of the ministry. The pastor is to live OUT of the tithe. He is to be in control of the tithe. That does not mean he keeps all the tithe. In my ministry knowing hundreds of pastors I have never met one who took all the tithe for himself. I surely never have but it is under my control.
2. I would have no objection in telling anyone what salary I placed myself on. Only a couple of times in my entire ministry has anyone asked me and I told them. But you know I never ask any saint in the church what their salary is? I would not tell a non-tither it is none of their business.
3. I have told folks who paid tithes on their gross they would have to use their own judgment on their pensions and SS. I have given tithes back hundreds of time to elderly saints or bought them groceries with it or fill their tanks up with gas. Or anomously sent their money back through other people.
I am not totting my horn because I do not believe I am any different than most pastors I have known. There has never been a saint I have pastored that has matched me on giving to the needy or giving to the church NOT ONE. I do not regret the groceries I have bought, school books I have paid, cars I have fixed, rents I have paid, loans I have made and refusing the payback, clothes I have bought, tires, washers, dryers, refrigirators, stoves, air conditioners, fuel oil, gas & electric bills, and the list is endless. Many times some saint told me about the need of a another saint(most of which never pulled the billfold and gave ONE dollar toward the need).
During those rough peanut brittle years my wife made the most of it with kids and my family sold it including myself. Who sat at bake sales and made most of the goods? My wife. Who cooked dinners for most of our guests? My wife. Who made sure the church was clean when the saint 'forgot?' My wife.
Now God has blessed us with much more than we deserve and you think I am going to allow tightwads and preacher haters to maek me feel bad because I don't have to buy day old bread and can buy a new pair of shoes and not buy used tires? Forget it. I have been abundantly blessed and now I have more to bless others.

[1ofthechosen]

Malachi 3:8-9 is saying it's robbing God or it wouldn't say "ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. And 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." So if it's robbery it always was, and always will be robbery. And the scripture doesn't say "thieves shall not inherit the kingdom of God." That's what he's saying and scripture says the samething in that context.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Malachi 3:8-9 is saying it's robbing God or it wouldn't say "ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. And 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." So if it's robbery it always was, and always will be robbery. And the scripture doesn't say "thieves shall not inherit the kingdom of God." That's what he's saying and scripture says the samething in that context.

Bro, tell me what is this whole nation?

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Bro, tell me what is this whole nation?

And was God saying that "Ye AND this whole nation have robbed me" or "Ye have robbed Me in addition to this whole nation"?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

And was God saying that "Ye AND this whole nation have robbed me" or "Ye have robbed Me in addition to this whole nation"?

It is actually an accusation against the Levites who through their corruption have led the people astray Malachi 2:8. Malachi 3:1-3 speaks of a warning to the Levis that a messenger is coming to the Temple to purify the shekel, even the utensils of the altar, so therefore the offering will be holy. When this messenger would come He will then make the offerings righteous Malachi 3:4. The prophet goes on to read them their crimes, that are contained in the law of Moses. drugs, perjury, defrauding the one who works for you of their pay, oppression of widows, orphans, and proselytes. Not teaching everyone the fear of the Lord. Then God signs this portion with Lord of the military, which isn't a good look, it means He is coming to give out a beat down. Malachi 3:6 God says He doesn't change He keeps His promises therefore the fleshly sons of Jacob remain. Malachi 3:7 God tells the leadership that since the time of their ancestors they never did the right thing, but please repent, and therefore when the refiner comes you will be saved. Yet, here is where they want to know how they need to be saved? This is the point of the whole book, the answer is contained in Malachi 3:8, by keeping the law. This is what He asks them to do, do what their ancestors refused to do. It was that simple. Malachi 3:9 Here is the curse which didn't only curse the blind guides, but those who they were leading. Still Malachi 3:10 seals the deal, the Levites again are told to follow the law correctly, by bringing everything into the storehouse. This is a governmental decision by God to provide for the people in which the Levites were to serve. The blessings would be the blessings of Joseph how he was blessed as well as the nation he served.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Bro, tell me what is this whole nation?

The nation of Judah, not everyone not just the priests. They are saying it's just the priests from 2:1 to 3:5 I believe that's the context. He ends the context with "saith the Lord of hosts." Then 3:6 is Him speaking towards them. And then 3:7 brings a new context as even my Bible has a context mark there.

And even is italicised so it's added so it says "ye have robbed me, this whole nation."

[n david]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Malachi 3:8-9 is saying it's robbing God or it wouldn't say "ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. And 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." So if it's robbery it always was, and always will be robbery. And the scripture doesn't say "thieves shall not inherit the kingdom of God." That's what he's saying and scripture says the samething in that context.

"even this whole nation" is referring to the curse, not the robbing.

Gill: "even this whole nation; the sin was become general, and therefore a general judgment was inflicted on them: Grotius thinks, that the people seeing the priests withhold the tithes from the Levites, they refused to pay them to them, and so the sin became universal. Kimchi observes, that in other sins charged upon the nation, the people were not all alike guilty, but in this which respected the tithes and offerings they were. "

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by n david

"even this whole nation" is referring to the curse, not the robbing.

Gill: "even this whole nation; the sin was become general, and therefore a general judgment was inflicted on them: Grotius thinks, that the people seeing the priests withhold the tithes from the Levites, they refused to pay them to them, and so the sin became universal. Kimchi observes, that in other sins charged upon the nation, the people were not all alike guilty, but in this which respected the tithes and offerings they were. "

I would go with that, in fact that's all I'm saying. All I'm saying if at any point it could be called robbing God. It always is, that's part of the moral law.