Do we have to pay tithes?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Look at Leviticus 27:1-8 show that the animals were as good as money. They couldve been sold.

The problem is this, when people read the scriptures they just literally read. No, real deciphering is ever done, or taking into account that while God doesn't change our times sure do. Therefore not one Judean or Israeli ever handled paper money. No one ever wrote out a check B.C. or A.D.. Coins were minted by different ruling bodies, but for the most part barter was the only way to buy or sell. Animals weren't always sold for money, they were traded for things you might need. If you were by a city, or within a kingdom then "pieces" of silver, gold, bronze, or iron were minted then used to "barter." These people were an agrarian society, to think that a farmer, or goat herder always had access to gold and silver is ludacris. The temple had money changers to change Roman coins to non-Roman coins. These money changers changed your money for temple taxes, buying sacrificial livestock.

If you were Diaspora coming in from Egypt no one would dream that you would of dragged a cow all the way from Alexandra. Therefore you purchased your religious supplies once you reached your destination being Jerusalem.

The no tithers sometimes only see the Levitical tithes, really don't bother with Cain and Abel because the majority of them see Cain being rejected because he didn't bring a lamb. Well, he couldn't bring a lamb, because that wasn't his vocation. He was a tiller of the ground and therefore he brought that which he produced. Abraham was a warrior, and since he won in battle he brought the pagan king priest Melchizedek the spoils of war.

Everyone who is arguing with you don't have a problem with giving offerings to the ministry. They just don't want to call it "tithing."

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Look at Leviticus 27:1-8 show that the animals were as good as money. They couldve been sold.

Brother, these were not animals. They were people. They were people who had made vows. People were not tithed.

(Just a caveat. When Abram tithed to Melchisedec, it seems likely that people may have been tithed.)

Remember what I said. The further you go down the road of learning the truth about tithes, the more this will happen. Things that you assumed to be true, will prove to be untrue. Expect it. Be brave. It is rewarding, but it can be scary.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

The problem is this, when people read the scriptures they just literally read. No, real deciphering is ever done, or taking into account that while God doesn't change our times sure do. Therefore not one Judean or Israeli ever handled paper money. No one ever wrote out a check B.C. or A.D.. Coins were minted by different ruling bodies, but for the most part barter was the only way to buy or sell. Animals weren't always sold for money, they were traded for things you might need. If you were by a city, or within a kingdom then "pieces" of silver, gold, bronze, or iron were minted then used to "barter." These people were an agrarian society, to think that a farmer, or goat herder always had access to gold and silver is ludacris. The temple had money changers to change Roman coins to non-Roman coins. These money changers changed your money for temple taxes, buying sacrificial livestock.

If you were Diaspora coming in from Egypt no one would dream that you would of dragged a cow all the way from Alexandra. Therefore you purchased your religious supplies once you reached your destination being Jerusalem.

The no tithers sometimes only see the Levitical tithes, really don't bother with Cain and Abel because the majority of them see Cain being rejected because he didn't bring a lamb. Well, he couldn't bring a lamb, because that wasn't his vocation. He was a tiller of the ground and therefore he brought that which he produced. Abraham was a warrior, and since he won in battle he brought the pagan king priest Melchizedek the spoils of war.

Everyone who is arguing with you don't have a problem with giving offerings to the ministry. They just don't want to call it "tithing."

Thank you EB. That is a pretty balanced assessment of the situation. I may not agree completely, but I generally agree with you.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Thank you EB. That is a pretty balanced assessment of the situation. I may not agree completely, but I generally agree with you.

If you have the time please give us a detailed assessment of the Elder Riggen video. It would be greatly appreciated and you will be able to show us your new found posting skill set.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

The problem is this, when people read the scriptures they just literally read. No, real deciphering is ever done, or taking into account that while God doesn't change our times sure do. Therefore not one Judean or Israeli ever handled paper money. No one ever wrote out a check B.C. or A.D.. Coins were minted by different ruling bodies, but for the most part barter was the only way to buy or sell. Animals weren't always sold for money, they were traded for things you might need. If you were by a city, or within a kingdom then "pieces" of silver, gold, bronze, or iron were minted then used to "barter." These people were an agrarian society, to think that a farmer, or goat herder always had access to gold and silver is ludacris. The temple had money changers to change Roman coins to non-Roman coins. These money changers changed your money for temple taxes, buying sacrificial livestock.

If you were Diaspora coming in from Egypt no one would dream that you would of dragged a cow all the way from Alexandra. Therefore you purchased your religious supplies once you reached your destination being Jerusalem.

The no tithers sometimes only see the Levitical tithes, really don't bother with Cain and Abel because the majority of them see Cain being rejected because he didn't bring a lamb. Well, he couldn't bring a lamb, because that wasn't his vocation. He was a tiller of the ground and therefore he brought that which he produced. Abraham was a warrior, and since he won in battle he brought the pagan king priest Melchizedek the spoils of war.

Everyone who is arguing with you don't have a problem with giving offerings to the ministry. They just don't want to call it "tithing."

Ok makes sense. Yea it's as good as money. That's just basically what I've been saying all along.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Do you pay tithes?

No, I don't.

Abolish is the word that the Bible uses, in the New Testament:

2Cor.3
[13] And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished . . .

Brother this is the words of Paul referring to the time when Moses received the law from God and returned to the children of Israel. What he is saying is that Moses wore a vail so that the children of Israel could not see the future, where the law was going to be abolished.

Here's another:

Eph.2
[15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Brother the tithe was a bundle of ordinances.

Bible, King James Version

Here's your one scripture.


2Cor.9
[7] Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

No man knows better than himself what he can afford to give. If he has an honest heart, he will give, if he can afford to. If his heart is not honest, then he needs Jesus. Think about it, sometimes the man who could give, may no longer be able to afford to give, he may in fact be in severe need of someone giving to him. That is what was happening in the instance above. This collection that Paul was referring to was for the poor saints of Jerusalem. It wasn't for pastors only, in fact pastors are never mentioned. The UPC articles of faith, as well as the ALJC hold this up for an example of tithing IIRC.

This is from UPCI Articles of Faith

TITHING
We believe tithing is God’s financial plan to provide for His work, and has been since the days of Abraham. Tithing came with faith under Abraham, Moses’ law enjoined it, and Israel practiced it when she was right with God; Jesus indorsed it (Matt. 23:23); and Paul said to lay by in store as God has prospered you. Do not rob God of His portion, viz., tithes and offerings. (Read Mall 3).

It is indeed peculiar that Paul, who was very well educated in the law, did not simply say to pay your tithes.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Ok makes sense. Yea it's as good as money. That's just basically what I've been saying all along.

There is one serious flaw in what you've been saying all along. It was not lawful to sell an animal that was tithed, unless it was an unclean animal.

Remember what I said. Almost everything that you believe you know about tithing will prove to be untrue. This is yet another of those things.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

If you have the time please give us a detailed assessment of the Elder Riggen video. It would be greatly appreciated and you will be able to show us your new found posting skill set.

I plan to do so. I don't want to make myself a liar by saying when. If I recall correctly that message is about two hours, so it will take some time. Should I make a separate thread for it? Or post it on here? I want to respect the efforts of 1ofthechosen.

What do you all think?

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother, these were not animals. They were people. They were people who had made vows. People were not tithed.

Remember what I said. The further you go down the road of learning the truth about tithes, the more this will happen. Things that you assumed to be true, will prove to be untrue. Expect it. Be brave. It is rewarding, but it can be scary.

All I'm saying is what EB said. Not everybody had money, but everyone received increase. Whatever your increase was as Deuteronomy 14:22 said "Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year."

Or as Leviticus 27:30-32 "And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's: it is holy unto the Lord. [31] And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. [32] And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, [I]the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord."

Because fact is bro, a tenth of everything still to this day should be holy to the Lord! That is a principal He has given that should never change. It's not meant to just be thrown out or how could He say in Malachi 3:8-9 "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. [9] Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation." Just deal with the parts I underlined and bolded, if that was meant to just be the priests. The text says different.

Whatever was theft and robbing God then is still robbing God when the "tenth is to be holy unto the Lord."

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

There is one serious flaw in what you've been saying all along. It was not lawful to sell an animal that was tithed, unless it was an unclean animal.

Remember what I said. Almost everything that you believe you know about tithing will prove to be untrue. This is yet another of those things.

I was saying it's as good as money. It can be bartered. Money or whether I trade cattle I tithed money cause it has monetary value it's increase. Simple and plain. And Paul was talking above of offerings. And the UPCi things says exactly what I said.