Do we have to pay tithes?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

2 Corinthians 9:7? What does this verse mean?



1 Corinthians 16:2 what does this verse mean?




I understand that is pretty much everyone's experience. It is the human experience.



Yes, we know, you hate the number 10 when combined with percentage.



My attitude concerning my demeanor with this discussion is mainly because I don't believe you really understand what you are talking about. Which I mean no offense by making this statement. You have shown me that you have no idea about tithing concerning any other ancient society other than the Hebrews. It also looks like you feel the New Testament Bible (as we have it today) was available to Jesus Christ and His followers? The ancient Hebrews were walking around with silver quarters and gold Krugerrands, and livestock weren't on the list of traded commodities. Melchizedek and Abraham was a one shot deal, Jacob promise to tithe was a one shot deal, so primitive tithing were anomalies. Paul going through a whole chapter explaining on ministerial support is reduced to, how you feel on a certain day? Also, if you have extra in your bank account you may toss in another sawbuck. So much for the widow and her mite, or the woman baking a cake for the prophet before her starving family gets to eat. Anyway, please, please I ask for your forgiveness in advance for my zeal, I'll forgive you for your's.



No, I believe no one ever needs to know that. Also envelopes with your name on them aren't necessary. I don't believe that people need to know how much you give. When I was in the world before church I had a friend who gave me a pair of boots. I would always be told that he gave me those boots. One night in the bar, I took the boots off and placed them on top of the bar, and rode home in my socks. Sadly, sometimes you not only get the gift, but the gift giver. that's why no one was to sound a trumpet when the offerings were made. So, no, I wouldn't ever want to know what you do with YOUR belongings. Peter made sure he told Ananias and Sapphira that the property was already their's, they owned it. They had no need to lie to the Holy Ghost about the amount. It wasn't ten percent, they were supposed to give a freewill offering of a 100% like everyone else. They could of told Peter that they chose to only give so much, honestly, and I personally believe their outcome would of been different. Yet, money makes people funny, especially when you are a full time preacher raising children and driving all over the United States. Or taking care of a church family never asking for anything.
Also you know something? When you are rich, everyone wants to give you things, that's so crazy. But when you are broker then Job's house cat, no one wants to know you.



No



Maybe for you, never for me.



You are doing a beautiful job

Now we have to work on Originalist and 1ofthechosen.

Their posts are cropped and you can't see who posted what.

You are talented.

And I can’t help but admire your wisdom. Even when I disagree with you.

Btw Was it Paul that said to give as you had been prospered?

You didn’t think I came up with that wisdom on my own did you?

I’m flattered.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What is better?

The new better covenant.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I’m flattered.

Oh, please, don't be.

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

You are talented.

And I can’t help but admire your wisdom. Even when I disagree with you.

Btw Was it Paul that said to give as you had been prospered?

You didn’t think I came up with that wisdom on my own did you?

I understand it was Paul who said it, I gave you the scripture verse which you failed to explain.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

The new better covenant.

How does that correlate with our discussion?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Oh, please, don't be.



I understand it was Paul who said it, I gave you the scripture verse which you failed to explain.

Sorry. I’m running out of steam. If I don’t get some rest I’m gonna start posting in lite green or something.

Lite green causes blindness I hear. Can’t have that.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

How does that correlate with our discussion?

I was responding to Buckeye.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I was responding to Buckeye.

I understand that, but how does a new and better covenant correlate with GOD loving cheerful givers? How does He love cheerful givers? What does He love about someone who gives cheerfully? What does it actually mean to give cheerfully? What does it look like to give cheerfully?

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I understand that, but how does a new and better covenant correlate with GOD loving cheerful givers? How does He love cheerful givers? What does He love about someone who gives cheerfully? What does it actually mean to give cheerfully? What does it look like to give cheerfully?

Well, it probably doesnt look like when you gotta write out the check to the IRS...

[Aquila]

There are different positions on this held by wonderful men of God. Personally, I do not see a NT mandate to tithe. However, this isn't to say that I don't believe in financially supporting the work of God, or even giving sacrificially to support the work.

I found it rather eye opening when I discovered that the Jews don't even tithe today. Since there isn't a temple system in operation, nor is there a Levitical priesthood to give the tithes to, they view tithing as a sin. In addition, most rabbinical scholars have pointed out that the tithe was strictly connected to the Holy Land. And so one living outside of the Holy Land wouldn't be required to tithe at all.

Regardless of one's eschatological beliefs, most can agree that Christ came in judgment against the entire OT system in AD 70. This not only destroyed the temple, but decimated the Levitical priesthood. And so, I believe that tithing ceased at that time.

I imagine that perhaps Christians tithed to the temple when Christianity was largely just a sect of Judaism. However, upon separating from the Levitical system and the destruction of the temple, I don't see it continuing. Partly because churches didn't have a massive storehouse. Such aggregation of wealth would have been difficult to maintain for the fledgling church that was gathering in homes, catacombs, and barns while facing persecution. However, I do see saints sharing their lives, resources, and belongings within the body. I also see the saints supporting the spreading and teaching of the Gospel. It would appear that this was done through voluntary financial offerings that were given as needs presented themselves.

History also helps us here. We see several failed efforts by the Roman Catholic Church to codify tithing and each of these efforts were rejected, illustrating that tithing wasn't viewed positively by the Christian churches. It wasn't until the 6th century that we see the first successful written edicts requiring tithing, and these carried civil penalties. From this point forward the intermingling with church and state helped fuel the requirement to tithe, and the civil enforcement of the practice. Here are two of many references that might prove valuable when looking at the historicity of the practice:

The Encyclopedia Americana says, “It [tithing] was not practiced in the early Christian church, but gradually became common by the 6th century.”

The Catholic Encyclopedia (1912 edition only) says, “In the beginning [provision] was supplied by the spontaneous support of the faithful. In the course of time, however, as the Church expanded and various institutions arose, it became necessary to make laws which would insure the proper and permanent support of the clergy. The payment of tithes was adopted from the Old Law, and early writers speak of it as a divine ordinance and an obligation of the conscience. The earliest positive legislation on the subject seems to be contained in the letter of the bishops assembled at Tours in 567 and the Canons of the Council of Macon in 585.”

Tithing can be a heavy burden on many American families. Many don't attend church because they simply don't have it in the budget to tithe 10% of their gross income. As the cost of living rises and wages remain stagnate, families find that the dollar just doesn't go as far as it used to. In today's society the average middle class American family is living paycheck to paycheck and carries significant debt. As a result, when churches require tithing, they really limit themselves to how much of the community they can reach. It also unintentionally sets the bar on who can attend a church and be a member in good standing based on their income.

I believe in what is called "Grace Giving". It is composed of free will offerings and vows (pledges).

This is where I believe "grace giving" becomes superior to tithing (not to mention it is far more biblical and grounded in the NT). In "grace giving", not only do individuals give voluntary offerings as led when the needs of the church are brought before the body, but individuals can prayerfully "vow" (or pledge) to give so much per check, a percentage of their check, or even a certain amount over a period of time (for example pledging to give $3000 over a year's time). This way the church can make financial forecasts, etc. In this way a responsibility to give is established, but what to give is decided in the heart of the individual. Paul wrote that hose who give bountifully will reap a bountiful reward. Those who give sparingly will receive sparingly.

2 Corinthians 9:6-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
6 The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. 9 As it is written,
“He has distributed freely, he has given to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever.”
10 He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness.

Most multi-million dollar charities and non-profit organizations function this way. Also, most television and radio ministries function this way. And most are more successful (statistically speaking) in maintaining their operations than the average church start-up.

So, I am an advocate for "grace giving".

[Aquila]

There are different positions on this held by wonderful men of God. Personally, I do not see a NT mandate to tithe. However, this isn't to say that I don't believe in financially supporting the work of God, or even giving sacrificially to support the work.

I found it rather eye opening when I discovered that the Jews don't even tithe today. Since there isn't a temple system in operation, nor is there a Levitical priesthood to give the tithes to, they view tithing as a sin. In addition, most rabbinical scholars have pointed out that the tithe was strictly connected to the Holy Land. And so one living outside of the Holy Land wouldn't be required to tithe at all.

Regardless of one's eschatological beliefs, most can agree that Christ came in judgment against the entire OT system in AD 70. This not only destroyed the temple, but decimated the Levitical priesthood. And so, I believe that tithing ceased at that time.

I imagine that perhaps Christians tithed to the temple when Christianity was largely just a sect of Judaism. However, upon separating from the Levitical system and the destruction of the temple, I don't see it continuing. Partly because churches didn't have a massive storehouse. Such aggregation of wealth would have been difficult to maintain for the fledgling church that was gathering in homes, catacombs, and barns while facing persecution. However, I do see saints sharing their lives, resources, and belongings within the body. I also see the saints supporting the spreading and teaching of the Gospel. It would appear that this was done through voluntary financial offerings that were given as needs presented themselves.

History also helps us here. We see several failed efforts by the Roman Catholic Church to codify tithing and each of these efforts were rejected, illustrating that tithing wasn't viewed positively by the Christian churches. It wasn't until the 6th century that we see the first successful written edicts requiring tithing, and these carried civil penalties. From this point forward the intermingling with church and state helped fuel the requirement to tithe, and the civil enforcement of the practice. Here are two of many references that might prove valuable when looking at the historicity of the practice:

The Encyclopedia Americana says, “It [tithing] was not practiced in the early Christian church, but gradually became common by the 6th century.”

The Catholic Encyclopedia (1912 edition only) says, “In the beginning [provision] was supplied by the spontaneous support of the faithful. In the course of time, however, as the Church expanded and various institutions arose, it became necessary to make laws which would insure the proper and permanent support of the clergy. The payment of tithes was adopted from the Old Law, and early writers speak of it as a divine ordinance and an obligation of the conscience. The earliest positive legislation on the subject seems to be contained in the letter of the bishops assembled at Tours in 567 and the Canons of the Council of Macon in 585.”

Tithing can be a heavy burden on many American families. Many don't attend church because they simply don't have it in the budget to tithe 10% of their gross income. As the cost of living rises and wages remain stagnate, families find that the dollar just doesn't go as far as it used to. In today's society the average middle class American family is living paycheck to paycheck and carries significant debt. As a result, when churches require tithing, they really limit themselves to how much of the community they can reach. It also unintentionally sets the bar on who can attend a church and be a member in good standing based on their income.

I believe in what is called "Grace Giving". It is composed of free will offerings and vows (pledges).

This is where I believe "grace giving" becomes superior to tithing (not to mention it is far more biblical and grounded in the NT). In "grace giving", not only do individuals give voluntary offerings as led when the needs of the church are brought before the body, but individuals can prayerfully "vow" (or pledge) to give so much per check, a percentage of their check, or even a certain amount over a period of time (for example pledging to give $3000 over a year's time). This way the church can make financial forecasts, etc. In this way a responsibility to give is established, but what to give is decided in the heart of the individual. Paul wrote that hose who give bountifully will reap a bountiful reward. Those who give sparingly will receive sparingly.

2 Corinthians 9:6-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
6 The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. 9 As it is written,
“He has distributed freely, he has given to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever.”
10 He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness.

Most multi-million dollar charities and non-profit organizations function this way. Also, most television and radio ministries function this way. And most are more successful (statistically speaking) in maintaining their operations than the average church start-up.

So, I am an advocate for "grace giving".