Saved Without A Pastor??

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Look in the book of Revelations 1:16 "And he had IN HIS RIGHT HAND SEVEN STARS: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength." What meaneth these seven stars? Go to verse 19 "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

And we know angel in these passages is referring to by definition "especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor. "
Now I can prove it go with me to 2:18-23 "And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; [19] I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. [20] Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. [21] And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. [22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. [23] And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

Now where I'm going with this? Because this is what the Pastor is announcing to the rest of the church, you know how I know? Now verse 24 "BUT UNTO YOU I SAY, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden." Who is this talking to when it says "unto you I say?" The Pastor by definition the messenger of the house. This has nothing to do with a angelic being, and Verse 24 proves that because an angel can't follow false doctrine, and not sin. And if they sin there is no repentance provided.

So now this all fits with Hebrews 13:7"Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation." Who did Revelations show this to be, the angel of the house "the pastor." Now verse 17 is clear "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." Verse 7 shows who they are that have rule over you, and so does Revelations Reveal what verse 7 is speaking of, a pastor.

Now why it doesnt talk more of this, IDK. But the NT is the times of the Apostles and that's what it focuses on. It doesn't go into detail about the Pastor because in it's definition it shows headship. Pastor or "poimen" means "the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church, of the overseers of the Christian assemblies." Which this is given by the Bishop, and the Apostles were the Bishops per Acts 1:20.

The Pastor is also a Elder btw in the church. They can be said interchangeably. There has to be a leader and the word Pastor is self explanatory if we see it one time in scripture its making itself clear what it means, by definition.

Threre is no ordination because the true Pastor of Gods church is appointed by God. The same way the Apostles were, hand picked. As my Pastor is, not that all pastors in buildings are. Which that would be safe to say that's also not Gods church, despite what it says on the door!

Have a goodnight we've had this conversation before. No reason to rehash it. But its real simple if you don't want to see it you won't.

Amen!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Harmony

Can a person be saved without a Pastor?

I have been reading the threads on salvation that have been up lately and I just want to scream....You can go thru every step that is out there and your salvation is still unsure......There is really know way to know if you are saved or not.

I am only going off my experience in attending a UPC church all of my life. Absolute submission to the Pastor was KEY to your salvation. If you felt God leading you in a certain way on a "matter" you still needed to have the approval of the Pastor, if they didn't think it was right they expected you to follow there opinion and yes, your salvation was at stake....there are so many weird mind games that were played....and they are all tied into salvation, if you don't adhere to what they wanted then you are in rebellion, and we know that nobody will make it to heaven in a rebellious state!

I have been away from that influence for several years. I have a real concern for family that is still in the church. I am very aware of the "Godly Fear" they live in. They are not sure of there salvation. They don't think on thier own....they think through a filter of "What would my pastor think"..not what would God think....

Yes. A person can be saved and not have a pastor. However, pastors are a gift from God to assist in teaching, mentoring, counseling, and prayer. They are one of the greatest gifts God has given us. Without them, our spiritual growth and understanding can be stunted. Without them, there is no one there to pull us up and encourage us when we fall. Without them, there is no one there to offer loving correction when we are wrong. And without a pastor, one can more easily fall prey to spiritual forces that seek to destroy the soul. One's spiritual walk in Christ can be at a serious disadvantage if they do not have a pastor. One can never reach their full potential, or experience the fullness of all the blessings in Christ without a pastor. One can more easily fall away and be lost without a pastor.

So, try to always have a pastor or seasoned elder to turn to. Someone who loves you and will check up on you if you don't show up, call, or touch base with them. Pick an individual of prayer, not one of strong personal opinions. A man of prayer will walk with you through anything. Men of opinion will abandon you the moment you do something that appears to be outside of the bounds of their opinions. Men (and women) of prayer tend to know Jesus more personally. And they can help you to know Jesus that intimately too.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Yes. A person can be saved and not have a pastor. However, pastors are a gift from God to assist in teaching, mentoring, counseling, and prayer. They are one of the greatest gifts God has given us. Without them, our spiritual growth and understanding can be stunted. Without them, there is no one there to pull us up and encourage us when we fall. Without them, there is no one there to offer loving correction when we are wrong. And without a pastor, one can more easily fall prey to spiritual forces that seek to destroy the soul. One's spiritual walk in Christ can be at a serious disadvantage if they do not have a pastor. One can never reach their full potential, or experience the fullness of all the blessings in Christ without a pastor. One can more easily fall away and be lost without a pastor.

So, try to always have a pastor or seasoned elder to turn to. Someone who loves you and will check up on you if you don't show up, call, or touch base with them. Pick an individual of prayer, not one of strong personal opinions. A man of prayer will walk with you through anything. Men of opinion will abandon you the moment you do something that appears to be outside of the bounds of their opinions. Men (and women) of prayer tend to know Jesus more personally. And they can help you to know Jesus that intimately too.

Amen.

I might add that the we should perhaps ask the question; Can we be saved without a:

teacher?

Apostle?

Prophet?

Evangelist?

I think we have created a culture that emphasizes the gift of the pastor, and almost ignores the other four forms of ministry that are found in the same verse.

It makes you wonder . . . Why do we do this? Are they less important?


Or . . . Are they not as well promoted in the church?

I reiterate that the Bible mentions pastors the least of the five-fold ministry, yet I believe the church mentions them the most. No worries . . . we only have it backwards . . . that's all.

New Testament mentions pastors once, the least of all of the five-fold ministry.

Evangelist comes in second to the least at triple the amount of mentions.

Prophet is mentioned one hundred sixty three times as often.

Hmmmm

Does anybody dispute that this is true?

Does anybody have a guess as to why this is so?

[Amanah]

the wackiness of this forum is proof we need Teachers and Evangelists to guide us.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Amen.

I might add that the we should perhaps ask the question; Can we be saved without a:

teacher?

Apostle?

Prophet?

Evangelist?

I think we have created a culture that emphasizes the gift of the pastor, and almost ignores the other four forms of ministry that are found in the same verse.

It makes you wonder . . . Why do we do this? Are they less important?


Or . . . Are they not as well promoted in the church?

I reiterate that the Bible mentions pastors the least of the five-fold ministry, yet I believe the church mentions them the most. No worries . . . we only have it backwards . . . that's all.

New Testament mentions pastors once, the least of all of the five-fold ministry.

Evangelist comes in second to the least at triple the amount of mentions.

Prophet is mentioned one hundred sixty three times as often.

Hmmmm

Does anybody dispute that this is true?

Does anybody have a guess as to why this is so?

Excellent point.

The current congregational model of most American churches, with the pastor leading the flock as the sole office of spiritual guidance was an innovation of John Calvin and the Reformers.

In the NT church there were elders (plural). And each elder had a specific gifting to pastor, evangelize, teach, start churches, or speak the oracles of God through the Holy Spirit. They led the body in a more collegial fashion. And so a single individual never had total control of the body. The five fold ministry gifts are spiritual gifts, not offices or positions. The church had elders... and the elders served the body through these giftings.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

You seem to have missed my entire point.
The above passage is not about church government.
It is about dealing with an issue among the twelve.

You seem to avoid answering questions . . . and to be allergic to quoting scripture . . .

or is it that there is no scripture?

The common theme that you share with 1ofthechosen is that you have neither one quoted a scripture that backs what you are teaching.

The reason is not that you have no knowledge of scripture . . . it is because there is no scripture to have knowledge of.

The scripture that you both quote, does not mention the word pastor, but you are sure that it means that. I don't believe it does.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Amanah

the wackiness of this forum is proof we need Teachers and Evangelists to guide us.

You said a mouthful sister!

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Amen.

I might add that the we should perhaps ask the question; Can we be saved without a:

teacher?

Apostle?

Prophet?

Evangelist?

I think we have created a culture that emphasizes the gift of the pastor, and almost ignores the other four forms of ministry that are found in the same verse.

It makes you wonder . . . Why do we do this? Are they less important?


Or . . . Are they not as well promoted in the church?

I reiterate that the Bible mentions pastors the least of the five-fold ministry, yet I believe the church mentions them the most. No worries . . . we only have it backwards . . . that's all.

New Testament mentions pastors once, the least of all of the five-fold ministry.

Evangelist comes in second to the least at triple the amount of mentions.

Prophet is mentioned one hundred sixty three times as often.

Hmmmm

Does anybody dispute that this is true?

Does anybody have a guess as to why this is so?

They are all for the perfecting of the saints. They all work together in the body for our edification. If these ministries are for our perfecting, would we be made perfect without any of them? This comparison is not wise.

[Amanah]

There are gifted Men that God places in our lives to do the following:

2 Timothy 4 English Standard Version (ESV)

Preach the Word

4 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound[a] teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

[Amanah]

2 Timothy 2:24-26 English Standard Version (ESV)

24 And the Lord's servant[a] must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

teaching with patience and kindness, Bro Blume, and Bro Esaias are the epitome of patience and kindness when teaching.