Saved Without A Pastor??

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Right, some of the wording in the post had me wondering if someone believed the angel of the churches was an actual angel.

More pastor/angels?

[10] Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

These pastor/angels beheld the face of God and lived?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Was John writing to an angel or a person?

More angel/messenger/pastors appearing to Joseph in a dream? Is this what y’all believe?

Matt.1

[20] But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
[24] Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

I can go on for days.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen View Post
Lol you seem to want to take away from it, and you are trying to wiggle your way out. So now your saying he wrote it to the guy doing the announcements huh? I wonder if after that he announced the bake sale?


You are wanting to pretend that I am subtracting from the scripture? Show me one word I have left out. You are making this up.

In regards to the bold statement above, I would like you to show where I said this. If you can't show it, I am requesting an apology for your FALSE accusation.

Bake sale? Some body is getting desparate!

Bump for 1ofthechosen

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Right, some of the wording in the post had me wondering if someone believed the angel of the churches was an actual angel.

Tithesmeister was saying that. But The word aggelos can be defined as "angel"; by implication a pastor." And it says Angel singular, church singular.

That Paul wrote about it at all let's you know its not a foreign idea to the time as is being said. Pastor or "poimen" means "shepherd pastor." Thayer says "the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church, of the overseers of the Christian assemblies."

I mean the whole argument is really about authority. Hebrews 13:7 says "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation." What's in bold is the subject for verse 17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

As we see this is "those who have spoken unto you the Word of God." So with the singular Angel of the church in Revelation and us knowing what Pastor is simply defined as, what does this tell us? I do agree this is talking about the 5 fold ministry, but one position by definition means "overseer of the church', letting us know what is intended by Angel of the church when they are receiving a letter written. Some of the Angels were rebuked with the church. While the angel or pastor of Thyatira was admonished because he wasn't in on the sin. And he apparently didn't compromise and allow it. This lets you know through the judgement given to some of the 7 churches angel that they had the seat of authority. They were at fault, just allowing it.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen View Post
Lol you seem to want to take away from it, and you are trying to wiggle your way out. So now your saying he wrote it to the guy doing the announcements huh? I wonder if after that he announced the bake sale?


You are wanting to pretend that I am subtracting from the scripture? Show me one word I have left out. You are making this up.

In regards to the bold statement above, I would like you to show where I said this. If you can't show it, I am requesting an apology for your FALSE accusation.

Bake sale? Some body is getting desparate!

Bump for 1ofthechosen

I'm saying you know if it was a singlular angel and by definition its a messenger or a pastor. And your saying "oh how do you know this messenger was the pastor maybe it was just a messenger." I was being sarcastic because you know when it says the angel of the church that makes it a plate of a authority. The overseer of the assembly as the word pastor is defined. So I said who was it? The guy saying the announcement because you are saying something about a 50% chance. Who else is the overseer by definition? It was a joke. Because you absolutely know the answer, but you won't say it.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

More angel/messenger/pastors appearing to Joseph in a dream? Is this what y’all believe?

Matt.1

[20] But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
[24] Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

I can go on for days.

This isn't the context of the angels in the 7 churches that was Gabriel..

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Definitely angels. It is possible that the angels were people? In chapter one it says he was writing to the seven churches of Asia. In chapter two he gets more specific and begins writing to angels of individual churches.

It is worth mentioning that the first verse of Revelation refers to an angel, and I’m pretty comfortable saying it is not talking about a human being.

If he starts writing to angels that are human messengers on chapter two, he certainly does not make it obvious that he did so.

Revelation begins with an angel that is not human. (IMO) It mentions seven Spirits that are not human (hence the capital s). Then, in chapter two mentions seven more angels. There is no distinction made between the first verse in Revelation and the angels in chapter two. I think it’s a HUGE stretch to think that chapter two switches to human angels without any warning that we are leaving a Spiritual realm and entering the physical.

Another thought, why wasn’t John referred to as an angel. If the qualifier for angel was simply a messenger, I think we all could agree that he qualified.

Becuase he wasn't the Pastor of one of these 7 churches! The 7 churches are absolutely not angelic beings because they receive a letter from a man and some are rebuked.. Angels don't get rebuked that are angelic beings unless they sin and then they would be fallen..

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Was John writing to an angel or a person?

Revelation 19:10

Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The angels are men, who hold the testimony of Jesus Christ. Hence the reason why John is corrected for prostrating himself before the minister.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Becuase he wasn't the Pastor of one of these 7 churches! The 7 churches are absolutely not angelic beings because they receive a letter from a man and some are rebuked.. Angels don't get rebuked that are angelic beings unless they sin and then they would be fallen..

Very good point. Each minister is commended and each minister is corrected.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Very good point. Each minister is commended and each minister is corrected.

The Bible clears this up. Hes over here talking about passages its talking about Gabriel, and all this other stuff, but hes only trying to detract from the subject at hand the 7 churches. And as you point out Revelations 19 but I've heard that preached that way on this message I heard today in fact by Brother Barry Sutton, but on that one I'm not sure all though he does say " I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus." But this guy is in the Spiritual realm so?? IDK.

But these people coined angel of the church are in the natural getting a letter from a natural man from God Almighty. Then some are rebuked and some are commended. Some of the ones that are rebuked, are rebuked for stuff that would be flat out sin, and then told to repent. Angels can't repent, ask Lucifer or any of the 1/3 of the angels that fell!