Demons and the believer

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The Bible says give no "place" to the devil. Place means occupancy in the Greek. The same word that was used when Mary and Joseph found no "room" in the inn.

Brother Blume

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by berkeley

We wrestle not against flesh and blood... ok. What does that mean?

Ephesians 6:10-20 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. (11) Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. (12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. (14) Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; (15) And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; (16) Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. (17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: (18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; (19) And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, (20) For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

We are to be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. This is accomplished by donning the whole armour of God, which is truth, righteousness, supporting the propagation of the Gospel, faith, our salvation, and the anointed Spirit-directed speaking of the Word. This is helped by (and largely takes place during) the praying and supplicating for all saints, said prayers being prayed "in the Spirit". And especially for Paul (and by extension all other preachers) that they might be empowered by God to boldly proclaim the Word at all times and every where.

The reason all this is needed is because "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. This is not talking about demons, but magistrates, religious leaders, religious ideas, secular persecuting governments and mass antichristian hysteria. The context of the verse you asked about is not about demons, but apostolic preaching and propagation of the Gospel in the midst of a hostile secular environment.

Powers and principalities are secular governments and magistrates:

Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

Paul is saying our warfare or contest is not a physical contest like a typical wrestling match, but an ideological, spiritual war against the powers that be, which are magisterial positions (government positions, whether secular or religious) which are occupied and dominated by wickedness. As he says also here:

2 Corinthians 10:3-6 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (4) (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) (5) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; (6) And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

We do not war according to the flesh (in the power or might of mere flesh, as unregenerate men) but our weapons are Divine and are designed to: pull down strongholds ( a metaphor taken from siege warfare, a stronghold is a fortress or castle) which strongholds are "imaginations... every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God... every disobedient thought". Biblical spiritual warfare is not about demons or anything else star wars related, it is all about the conflict of worldviews between God's Word and Truth on the one hand, and the darkened imaginations of unregenerate, rebellious, sinful society on the other hand.

Since we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities, and since the weapons of our warfare are designed to bring every thought to the obedience of Christ while tearing down every imagination and disobedient thought, etc, it follows that our wrestling against powers and principalities has to do with ideological conflict between the Kingdom of God and the kingdoms of unregenerate man. See Daniel 2 for a bird's eye view of that conflict in prophecy.

[berkeley]

Thanks, Esaias.

[Esaias]

Ephesians 4:26-27 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: (27) Neither give place to the devil.

The context here is Christian behaviour. Christians are not to allow their anger to lead them into sin, they are not allow anger to go unaddressed and festering. They are to put away lying (vs 25) and to refrain from stealing but rather be productive and generous (vs 28).

The word "devil" is a generic term meaning slanderer, accuser, adversary. It is found here:

1 Timothy 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

The word "slanderers" is diabolous, or "devils". The wives must be "not devils".

The word also occurs here:

2 Timothy 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

"False accusers" is diaboloi, and means "devils". Men are predicted to be "devils" in this verse. Vs 5 tells Christians to turn away from such devils.

The word also occurs here:

Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

Ages women are not to be devils.

Taking all this into account, it seems Paul is saying "give no place to the devil", that is, give no place for those who are false accusers, do not receive a tale-bearer or false accuser, pay no heed to their lying words, expunge them from among you, do not be such. It's meaning can be expanded to indicate that we should not allow any foothold in our congregations and indeed in our individual lives that is contrary to the will of God.

As regards to actual evil spiritual entities and "giving place" or making allowances for them, that is addressed elsewhere:

1 Corinthians 10:14-28 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. (15) I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. (16) The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? (17) For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. (18) Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? (19) What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? (20) But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. (21) Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. (22) Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? (23) All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. (24) Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth. (25) Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: (26) For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. (27) If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. (28) But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

The word "devils" in this passage is daimonion, and means "demons".

And again:

2 Corinthians 6:14-18 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? (15) And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? (16) And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (17) Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, (18) And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Not only does this passage forbid unequal yoking between believers and unbelievers, but the reason given is that there is no fellowship between the Temple of God and idols. Idolatry - pagan religious practices - have no part with the people of God or the worship of God, and therefore are not to be joined together, just as infidels have no part with believers, and are not to be joined together.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by berkeley

Thanks, Esaias.

[Esaias]

This should provide better understanding of what the following passage means:

1 Peter 5:8-9 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: (9) Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

And should also provide some insight to help understand this:

Revelation 2:9-10 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. (10) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

And this:

Revelation 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, (8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. (9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Ephesians 6:10-20 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. (11) Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. (12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. (14) Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; (15) And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; (16) Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. (17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: (18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; (19) And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, (20) For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

We are to be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. This is accomplished by donning the whole armour of God, which is truth, righteousness, supporting the propagation of the Gospel, faith, our salvation, and the anointed Spirit-directed speaking of the Word. This is helped by (and largely takes place during) the praying and supplicating for all saints, said prayers being prayed "in the Spirit". And especially for Paul (and by extension all other preachers) that they might be empowered by God to boldly proclaim the Word at all times and every where.

The reason all this is needed is because "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. This is not talking about demons, but magistrates, religious leaders, religious ideas, secular persecuting governments and mass antichristian hysteria. The context of the verse you asked about is not about demons, but apostolic preaching and propagation of the Gospel in the midst of a hostile secular environment.

Powers and principalities are secular governments and magistrates:

Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

Paul is saying our warfare or contest is not a physical contest like a typical wrestling match, but an ideological, spiritual war against the powers that be, which are magisterial positions (government positions, whether secular or religious) which are occupied and dominated by wickedness. As he says also here:

2 Corinthians 10:3-6 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (4) (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds (5) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; (6) And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

We do not war according to the flesh (in the power or might of mere flesh, as unregenerate men) but our weapons are Divine and are designed to: pull down strongholds ( a metaphor taken from siege warfare, a stronghold is a fortress or castle) which strongholds are "imaginations... every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God... every disobedient thought". Biblical spiritual warfare is not about demons or anything else star wars related, it is all about the conflict of worldviews between God's Word and Truth on the one hand, and the darkened imaginations of unregenerate, rebellious, sinful society on the other hand.

Since we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities, and since the weapons of our warfare are designed to bring every thought to the obedience of Christ while tearing down every imagination and disobedient thought, etc, it follows that our wrestling against powers and principalities has to do with ideological conflict between the Kingdom of God and the kingdoms of unregenerate man. See Daniel 2 for a bird's eye view of that conflict in prophecy.

So man just got these ideologies all of himself? He also wanted to sin just all of himself? Let me ask you Brother is that how it happened in the Book of Beginnings? Because the law of first mention sets the precedent, and whatever it was in the very beginning will be the way it was until the end.

We are battling against unregenerate men no doubt, but that's the tree not the roots. So here in Daniel 10 where it's says this in verse 13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia." You believe this is humans who are flesh and blood this is talking about? Because this word Prince is short for "principality" which is by definition "PATRON-ANGEL, Ruler of rulers (of God)". What we see with our eyes is only a reflection of what is going on in the Spiritual. It doesn't begin In the natural, no.sir the spiritual is only manifested in the natural realm.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

So man just got these ideologies all of himself? He also wanted to sin just all of himself? Let me ask you Brother is that how it happened in the Book of Beginnings? Because the law of first mention sets the precedent, and whatever it was in the very beginning will be the way it was until the end.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Psalms 2:1-3 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? (2) The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, (3) Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

These verses clearly show that sin came into the world by Adam (not some demon), that Adam was NOT in fact deceived, just rebellious, and that the secular powers imagine and conspire against God without attributing such imaginations and conspiracies to demons.

So here in Daniel 10 where it's says this in verse 13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia." You believe this is humans who are flesh and blood this is talking about? Because this word Prince is short for "principality" which is by definition "PATRON-ANGEL, Ruler of rulers (of God)". What we see with our eyes is only a reflection of what is going on in the Spiritual. It doesn't begin In the natural, no.sir the spiritual is only manifested in the natural realm.

I already quoted the Scripture where Paul says for us to be subjected to principalities and powers. Are you saying Paul wants us to be subjected to demons? Obviously not, the powers and principalities that we war against are secular and religious authorities and their ideologies of rebellion against God.

The prince of Persia withstood Gabriel, but Michael the chief prince helped him. No saints were involved in that battle. There most certainly are spiritual forces behind global geopolitics. But that is not what we are up against according to the apostle. Do you notice that nowhere in the New Testament do we find believers being told to engage in "prayer warfare" against demons and spiritual entities? Demons are simply cast out when they are encountered. Meanwhile, the apostolic church engaged in spiritual warfare against IDEAS THAT ARE CONTRARY TO GOD'S TRUTH. and they warred against such things by PREACHING AND TEACHING.

You aren't going to preach and teach demons out of anything. Those just need to be CAST OUT. But you HAVE to preach and teach against ERROR, you can't just pray it away.

[Esaias]

Speaking of the "prince of Persia", upon what basis is it claimed that this was in fact a nun-human entity?

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Speaking of the "prince of Persia", upon what basis is it claimed that this was in fact a nun-human entity?

Because he withstood Gabriel... and Michael had to woop him.