Demons and the believer

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

The flip side is we tend to see only the spiritual application of many of the scriptures we have discussed, when the context is contending with earthly principalities, Assyrian, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, ect.

The Old Testament prophets lived in conflict with the culture around them, fighting injustice, idolatry, and violations of the law. Nathan confronting David, Elijah confronting Ahab for example.

The NT Apostles turned their world upside down, covering the then known world on foot, donkey, boat, ect, preaching the gospel from Asia to Greece to Rome.

Amen. We cannot deny the immediate and earthly meaning that was relevant to the writer... even if subsequent revelation exposes a deeper reality that may or may not have been realized by the writer.

In the OT the prophets did confront the culture around them. And God was focused on a specific earthly nation, with specific codified earthly moral, civil, and ceremonial laws. And so, it was a very real calling to unify the nation politically/spiritually and conquer the cultures around them, or prevent those cultures from influencing them with things that opposed the Law, with a specific focus on the line of Abraham.

In the NT, prophets and preachers also confront the culture around them. However, the focus isn't an earthly nation. Nor are there any codified civil and/or ceremonial laws. Moral laws remain, yet they are not enforced through threat of earthly penalty (like stoning), they are enforced through admonition to holiness/wholeness and the warning of the penalty (judgment) to come. The calling is to unify a body comprised of all nations, kindreds, peoples, and tongues in one spiritual Kingdom that penetrates and pervades every earthly nation of this age. Prayer, medication, and teaching are to conquer the godless cultural influences in the life of the individual, and the life of the local assembly. The agenda isn't to "Christianize" the diseased systems of earthly government. It is to keep the church focused on her identity in Christ. And instead of focus being on the line of Abraham, the focus is on a unity of Spirit in Christ Jesus regardless of earthly national or political associations.

The NT church is truly the first real universal faith. A faith that can flourish in any culture or nation. The only two ordinances of Scripture are water baptism and the Lord's Supper. There are no set feast days, holy days, holidays, dietary standards, calendars, sacred language (like church being done in Hebrew or Latin), ceremonial dress codes, etc. It is truly a faith for all peoples. And with this new universally applicable faith, the early church flipped the Roman world upside down... without a single act of political activism, revolt, or revolution. It was done by simply being a Christian who remained on their knees. And the power that flowed through the church healed the sick, raised the dead, cast out devils, and saved the soul. They flipped the world upside down by... simply being the church. No politics, weapons, wars, revolutions, etc., necessary.

The Kingdom cometh not with observation. Because the Kingdom is within those who are a part of it. And success isn't predicated upon numbers attained, cultural influence, legislation, or party in power. It is an eternal spiritual Kingdom that transcends all of these things.

[Aquila]

I love preachers who see both sides of the Scriptures. One preacher I knew personally would explain the immediate meaning, for example, he would explain how Isaiah was prophesying against the human King of Babylon. Then, he'd say, "And so, what does that mean to us?" And he'd then begin going deeper into the spiritual realities of the text that we can glean from and apply to our daily lives and spiritual understanding.

Isaiah prophesied against a human ruler who was full of the devil. And so, we too might very well face rulers, authorities, bosses, and family members who are full of the same spirit. With this in mind, we know not to hate the person in question. They are in bondage. We should desire to see them set free. And carnal weapons of war (politics, guns, planes, bombs, etc.) will not set anyone free. Only the Gospel can set the soul free of such bondage.

I'm reminded of a song we used to sing in church years ago...

Lift up your voice and sing for joy
Clap your hands make a joyful noise
Blow the trumpet and shout
Praise Him for the victory

The weapons we use are not bombs and guns
Worship is the way that the battle is won
This is the way that we fight
Praise Him for the victory

No one can stop, overrule, or control a Kingdom that is within the human heart.

[Aquila]

You know, many people don't realize that Paul dealt with a spirit that tried to oppress him.

2 Corinthians 12:1-13 English Standard Version (ESV)
1 I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. 5 On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses— 6 though if I should wish to boast, I would not be a fool, for I would be speaking the truth; but I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me. 7 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

This spirit tried to exploit Paul's human weaknesses with temptations, inspire insults from the opposition, orchestrate hardships of circumstance, inspire persecutions, and it even use its power to bring about natural calamities... all in the hopes of crushing Paul's resolve to preach the Gospel.

Paul prayed three times for this spirit to be removed. But God allowed it to remain because in all these things, it kept Paul humble and dependent upon the grace of Christ.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Thank you for your time on this subject. It really did help.

Esaias let me ask you do you believe in a eternal hell?

You're welcome, brother.

I believe in eternal judgment, the second death, from which there is no escape. I do not, however, believe the wicked are or ever will be immortal, because that is God's gift to the redeemed.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You know, many people don't realize that Paul dealt with a spirit that tried to oppress him.

.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Who was tempting Jesus in the desert? Who was Jesus talking to?

Who was God talking to in Job 1?

Regarding Job what is its genre? It is Wisdom literature in the form of an extended parable. It NEVER was considered a straightforward historical record. Besides which, even if it were, it still wouldn't prove satan is a fallen angel because it says no such thing.

And this is the whole point: while many read various passages as though there is an evil fallen angel running amok, yet just like trinitarianism, the theory has to be in place and fully developed PRIOR to reading the Bible. The Bible is interpreted in light of an already formed belief. Because just going by the Bible only this belief system doesn't appear and is nowhere taught.

Perfect examples include assuming Isaiah 14 is about Satan and not what it actually says it is about, the king of Babylon.

Regarding the temptations of Christ in the wilderness, we must allow scripture to interpret scripture. Every man when he is tempted is drawn away by what? A guy in a red suit sitting on his shoulder? Just what exactly is the Biblical satan or devil being discussed? Again, just let scripture itself tell you, and you will understand how things work in the real world.

You will also understand why "the devil made me do it" is a cop out enabled by error in doctrine on this subject.

What is really interesting is if you read all the scriptures in the NT taken from the OT and see how the NT writers interpret those OT scriptures. You will find some interesting renderings of the OT by NT writers in which the NT writers find Jesus everywhere in the OT where many in the OT would have understood the OT scripture differently at the time. Try Isa 7:14 and Matt 1:23. I choose to believe the NT writer's interpretation of the OT but at the same time believe there may have been a near and far interpretation of the OT scripture.

The apostles found Christ everywhere in the OT but modern apostolics find the devil everywhere instead? Funny that...

[n david]

Things I've learned in the past 24 hours:

• The devil isn't real.
• There are no demons.
• Spiritual warfare is a construct.
• There is no hell.
• The story of Job is a fairy tale - there was no man named Job who lost everything and had it restored.

If I didn't know better, I'd just

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Regarding the temptations of Christ in the wilderness, we must allow scripture to interpret scripture. Every man when he is tempted is drawn away by what? ...

So it's true that James does say "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." I'll agree.

When it comes to Jesus Christ God manifest in the flesh you honestly believe that He was tempted by let's go there Matthew 4:1 "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil." So let's just begin there the text says He was tempted.

So are you saying now you believe God manifest in the flesh was tempted by His own lust (or strong craving, or desired) and enticed by:
We won't begin with Verse 3-4 because of course He was hungry.

The second one I don't believe He was even thrilled by that. But what about 8-9 "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; [9] And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me."

You believe He was enticed and lusted for those things above? It was all His anyway, since you said He was "the God of this world" 2 Corinthians 4:4 was talking about.

I don't believe in no red suited pitchfork whatever. But the devil is real, and if you do believe in him at all what is his purpose?

What's this scripture about btw ? "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. [17] No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord."

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by n david

Things I've learned in the past 24 hours:

• The devil isn't real.
• There are no demons.
• Spiritual warfare is a construct.
• There is no hell.
• The story of Job is a fairy tale - there was no man named Job who lost everything and had it restored.

If I didn't know better, I'd just

Apparently our warfare is not against flesh and blood, but it is against flesh and blood, and the spirit in man is a force all of it's own. I met some Muslims that said this very thing they said "Shayṭān" or Satan was a mindstate. Thats why they called white men devil's because of a mindstate. Which I guess could be said to be a attitude, or a spirit. But they claimed it came from man. They said there was no other spiritual entity i.e. fallen angels or anything else.

In this thread I've heard near Calvinism with the 2 Corinthians 4:4 stuff EB said, Armstrongism the Annihilation of the wicked, and Islamic Nation of islam theology all mixed together in 1 big ball and called Apostolic?

While I did glean another outlook on things, as far as whats happening In the physical. It hasn't been all bad, there was some good I've heard. But some of this stuff like what was said about The prince of Persia and Daniel 10 and Michael and Gabriel I believe that's all conjecture. I don't agree, I believe that's something getting explained away Into "hyper spiritualization" as MTD said. But at least half of the other stuff I'll agree with, even though I know that's not the whole picture.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by n david

Things I've learned in the past 24 hours:

• The devil isn't real.
• There are no demons.
• Spiritual warfare is a construct.
• There is no hell.
• The story of Job is a fairy tale - there was no man named Job who lost everything and had it restored.

If I didn't know better, I'd just

What's funny is you didn't learn any of those things on this or any other thread on AFF.