Are we to repent for our ancestors past sins?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

A - my belief system is called "The Bible".
And the gospel is about my sin, not the sin of my ancestors.
Now, I did ask a question that you did not answer, earlier.
Is every generation supposed to ask for forgiveness for the preceeding ones?
In other words, you confess, repent and apologize for the sins of your fathers (and mothers too, I assume).
So, would your children need to do the same, only add you to the list of ancestors?

Seems kind of foolish, doesn't it?

From the perspective you've chosen, it does seem foolish. lol You're approach is logical and consistent. However, I personally believe there is a bit of a category fallacy being made. I'll explain.

And the gospel is about my sin, not the sin of my ancestors.

It is. However, the Bible has God repeatedly declaring that He will visit the inequities of the fathers upon future generations. Scripture opens with the story of Adam and Eve. And it was Adam's sin that caused mankind's fall, and all of mankind was condemned under Adam's sin, because we were in his loins. In a sense, the entire need for redemption is predicated upon the notion of our first ancestor's sin, is it not? Adam's sin not only caused an ontological separation from God, but this separation from God caused our very nature to become "fallen", and so we are sinners by nature prior to regeneration (which comes by the baptism of the Holy Spirit). So every one of your sins, is the byproduct of... Adam's sin. Subsequent generations after Adam added to that iniquity through their own individual sins, children being introduced to, learning, and perpetuating those sins of their fathers, compounding the sinfulness of the fathers, through their own sin. No man is an island. No man lives in a vacuum. We are a product of those who came before us. And no matter how unique or distinct our personal sins might be, they are not without influence from our fathers. So, because of my view, when someone declares that it is all about "my sin", I feel their view is only partial, or incomplete, and their view far more self oriented, or self-centered, than the testimony of Scripture on the subject.

Now, I did ask a question that you did not answer, earlier.
Is every generation supposed to ask for forgiveness for the preceeding ones?
In other words, you confess, repent and apologize for the sins of your fathers (and mothers too, I assume).
So, would your children need to do the same, only add you to the list of ancestors?

This is an important question. Several factors should be considered before the right answer is applied. When one repents and obeys the Gospel, their personal sins are forgiven. However, there remains the question, "What about the sins of our fathers?" Well there are multiple considerations before one should consider repenting of ancestral sin:

1.) Has a given ancestor's sinful living caused pain, injustice, loss that continues until this present day? If so, is it possible to right these wrongs? If not, all one can do is pray that God comfort those who suffer under the effects of an ancestor's sin. Sometimes if the sin has effected an entire group of people, a public acknowledgement of their having been wronged can help healing begin, and help people move on. For example, the German Chancelor acknowledging the atrocities of the Holocaust and expressing her deepest apologies that the German people could ever be a part of such evil. Sometimes confession and repentance with restitution can end the effects that continue until the present day. Imagine a feud between two families in Tennessee. Their feud began over a bad business deal, a tricky and misleading land contract with an ancestor, that robbed a family and left them destitute, causing subsequent generations to be born in abject poverty and lack. There have been threats, fights, a killing or two, and the blood feud rages. And after one is born again, they inherit the very land their ancestor swindled this other family out of. One course of action would be to acknowledge that they were wronged... and return the land to the most direct descendent of the rightful owner. This kind of repentance for ancestral sin is more social in its construct, it isn't about escaping the judgment of God for the sin itself, it is about honoring God by righting a wrong when it is within one's power to do so. Failure to right the wrong, when one is able to do so, makes one implicated in their ancestor's sin by not doing what they can, a sin of omission.

2.) After repenting and obeying the Gospel, let's say that one continues to struggle with a compulsive sinful impulse originating from their flesh. One confesses, and repents, over and over again, only to find themselves in the cold grip of intense temptation time and time again. The "temptation" continues to rage and come on strong and it leaves one living what can only be defined as a life of defeat in their Christian walk. Two things can be in play here. First, perhaps the influence from one's father (which came from one's grandfather, and perhaps even further back) is ingrained in one's soul (their mind). Sometimes this can be processed out of one's heart is to look into family history. Does alcoholism, incest, perversion, the occult, idolatry, lying, stealing, or whatever it might be show a pattern of perpetuation? Or was a single ancestor's act something that has shaped the family's identity? Is there a deep dark "family secret" that is known, but unmentionable? If identified, taking this ancestral sin that still lives in one's members before God, and asking for healing and forgiveness for it, can break the cycle and the power of the temptation. It's now out in the open and in the light. And so, it loses it's power over the individual in question, and subsequent generations after them. Remember, your flesh, down to your very DNA

3.) This third consideration is more "spiritual" than the previous two. And not everyone believes in it, and that's okay. But I believe in it. Sometimes an ancestor's sin can open a door for evil spirits to step in an claim authority in a family. This creates a generational stronghold. It might be a spirit of rebellion, alcoholism, adultery, incest, homosexuality, addiction, violence, anger, or bondage to the occult. These spirits not only gained access to the ancestor's life their sin, but through their sin, these spirits now travel freely from generation to generation, perpetuating the same sin over and over through oppression and/or possession. After one is born again, they are forgiven for their sins. However, spirits that run in a family because of ancestral sin do not want to lose their power over that individual and the generations that will follow. And so, they will turn up the heat, tempting and oppressing the individual to bring them back into demonic bondage. While spirits can be cast out, when dealing with these types of spirits, their stronghold can be rooted in the authority they gained over the family through the ancestor's sin. Taking this sin to God, confessing it, getting it into the light, and casting out these spirits is necessary to end the demonic bondage plaguing the family, and relieves future generations of having to deal with these types of spirits.

4.) Like the consideration above, this too is a more "spiritual" consideration. I believe in generational curses. I believe that an ancestor can traffic with given spirits through various sins that can provoke God Himself to curse a family unto the third and fourth generations. This is typically the result of a reprobate ancestor who had a hatred for God and all things holy. When dealing with this curse, it is typically in the lives of others, not the life of the believer in question. Is this other individual struggling to receive the Holy Spirit? Does it appear that God's prevenient grace is not at work in a person's life, though the saint of God has discerned God's desire to save that person? Is one's life spiritually barren? This could be the result of a generational curse from God. Having the individual look into their family history (or the believer having discerned through the Holy Spirit) and addressing the sin by confessing and repenting of their ancestor's actions can release them from the curse, and swings the doors open wide for God's grace for that family from that day forward. This is essentially helping to reconcile an entire family that has been cut off by God by an ancestor's hatred that was so offensive to God, He has chosen to doom the entire family line. By taking the sin before God as a representative of the family, and repenting of it, God will then forgive and lift the curse and the family be set free.

A generational curse can also come from a witch or even from an evil spirit. This kind of curse is a "spiritual construct" that performs given actions base don the intent of the one who cast the curse robotically over and over again, without fail, as specified by the caster. It isn't a "demon", so it can't just be cast out. Though it almost seems "alive", it isn't. It's more of a spiritual mechanic at work, and it must be broken. How can one determine if a curse might be active in a family? Well, if one looks into their family history and sees a repeated pattern of "coincidence" that brings pain, loss, defeat, sickness, or death repeatedly over time in every generation, their may very well be a curse on the family. Imagine a family with someone in every generation being diagnosed with a given disease, or losing everything to a house fire, or experiencing a tragic car accident. When looked at in this manner, the family history might be riddled with strange coincidences and circumstances that leave the family broken. It's like the family continues to pull defeat out of the mouth of victory, time and time again. The coincidences in question are typically not on account of any specific actions performed by family members. Perhaps they do everything right, but something always goes tragically wrong, leaving them broken down on the roadside of life. Or, it can be a disease... great great grandma had cancer, grandma had cancer, dad had cancer, along with other family members having had cancer, but none smoke or have habits that would typically cause so much cancer. It's like these coincidences or diseases just "run in the family". These curses are broken through the power of the Holy Spirit and the authority of Christ as wielded by the believer. Binding the curse and declaring it broken in the name of Jesus can put an end to the family's repeated trials and defeats that result from such curses.

Now, not everything is related to ancestral sin or generational curses. But when something proves to be a continued and repeated problem, that surfaces over and over again, and victory continues to escape the one plagued by it... this is a sign that it is possible that ancestral sin or a generational curse is the issue. In every case, the Holy Spirit can grant the saint of God the ability to discern through the Spirit what the source of the repeated/perpetuated issue might be.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Quite simply, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal who believes I need to make reparations or go on an apology tour for something some dead ancestors did decades or centuries ago.

If your open to it, and if it is ever necessary, the Holy Spirit will guide you. It isn't something that must be a part of any process. You'll know if an "apology" can make a difference, should you ever face a circumstance in which it might.

No one is demanding anyone go on tour apologizing for anything just out of the blue.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

From page 2 or something:

Part of our problem today is our manufactured and contrived individualism. We don't see our connections to others, to those who came before us, our fellows, or those coming after us. We're all islands in the stream, etc. It's part of how our enemies have essentially destroyed our culture. Divorce people from their past and the larger community to which they belong, convince them they are rugged individuals and that personal issues are of prime importance... and you have an easily manipulated populace with no bearings and no compass and no map, riddled with an inexplicable angst that bubbles up in nihilistic outbursts, suicides, depression, and other self destructive things.

You also get a church preoccupied with getting itself to heaven and becoming of no practical, relevant, use. Salt that loses its savour, etc.

So very true, and so very relevant to our circumstance today.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

E - by this I presume you mean our connection with previous generations who believed the truth, like we believe?
Many individuals that come into church do not want to have links with their past ancestors.
Since their ancestors did not believe the truth and may have led unholy lives.

What individuals want and the nature of the Holy God of Scripture can be quite different.

The God of Scripture has on more than one occasion cursed subsequent generations on account of the sins of their fathers. In fact, aren't we all struggling under the condemnation of Adam's sin? Adam was our very first ancestor, was he not? If this is considered, then the entirety of redemptive history is woven together with the reality of ancestral sin. We are all condemned and in need of a Savior because of our first ancestor's sin. If you disagree, please share what you think.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Its not a rabbit hole, its a red herring and a straw man that nobody, to my knowledge, is promoting. Aquila, however (as usual) is trying to spin everything into radical communist talking points, class warfare, "social justice", and a plug for Bernie Sanders. Its prolly just the CBD talking. Or kratom, or whatever else democrats are into these days.

Hey, hey, now. LOL

I'm only talking about restitution for wrongs. It's people that fear the "social justice warrior" making accusations of socialism and communism. I'm just saying, if the effects of an ancestor's actions continue to produce pain, oppression, or lack, be a Christian and fix the problem... if the power for you to do so exists.

Don't listen to my detractors. Listen to what I'm actually saying.

And keep in mind, the Bible doesn't always agree with the modern day idols of conservatism or liberalism. It confronts each side with biblical truths they don't want to accept.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Quite simply, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal who believes I need to make reparations or go on an apology tour for something some dead ancestors did decades or centuries ago.

I have not really felt the need to personally apologize for anything regarding African American slavery. My family are Scott-Irish, and were far too poor to own slaves. In fact, being Scott-Irish, one was likely to become an indentured servant of sorts as part of passage to the New World. Keep in mind, it wasn't uncommon for the Irish to also be slaves and servants in the New World. I have felt the need to acknowledge that African slavery was terrible sin of inhumanity that has left millions uprooted from their homelands, left many prosperous tribes plundered, left millions impoverished, illiterate, and oppressed for generations. I also acknowledge that the racial hatred that motivated many of these atrocities committed against them exists in pockets of our society today.

I confess and acknowledge the wrongs committed by my ancestors. And if I see any way to help remedy the racism that fueled such oppression, I'm there, supporting the effort.

[Aquila]

None of us were created out of thin air. Our very material form, its cells, matter, all the way down to our chromosomes and DNA came from... our ancestors. We are biological extensions of their very being. They are our "flesh and blood" and we are their "flesh and blood". Every single remaining epigenetic tag produced by any traumatic experience, pleasurable experience, preference, or lifestyle choice that they ever had remains in us and makes us bear a living imprint of all that they ever were. We are our ancestors... and ultimately... we are all Adam. Was not the entire human race in his very loins? Though we have a distinct consciousness from them... we cannot deny the reality that as organisms go, they essentially continue to live... in us.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I have not really felt the need to personally apologize for anything regarding slavery. My family are Scott-Irish, and were far too poor to own slaves. In fact, being Scott-Irish, one was likely to become an indentured servant of sorts as part of passage to the New World. Keep in mind, it wasn't uncommon for the Irish to be slaves and servants. I have felt the need to acknowledge that it was terrible sin of inhumanity that has left millions uprooted from their homelands, left many prosperous tribes plundered, left millions impoverished, illiterate, and oppressed for generations. I also acknowledge that the racial hatred that motivated many of these atrocities committed against them exists in pockets of our society today.

I confess and acknowledge the wrongs committed by my ancestors. And if I see any way to help remedy the racism that fueled such oppression, I'm there, supporting the effort.

are you speaking about the Irish? millions of Irish uprooted?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

are you speaking about the Irish? millions of Irish uprooted?

I'm referring back to the first sentence. I'll modify the post to read more clearly.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Aquila

What individuals want and the nature of the Holy God of Scripture can be quite different.

The God of Scripture has on more than one occasion cursed subsequent generations on account of the sins of their fathers. In fact, aren't we all struggling under the condemnation of Adam's sin? Adam was our very first ancestor, was he not? If this is considered, then the entirety of redemptive history is woven together with the reality of ancestral sin. We are all condemned and in need of a Savior because of our first ancestor's sin. If you disagree, please share what you think.

What I think is that there is no example in the NT of anyone repenting for a past ancestor's sins.
So, it seems like we are making up a new doctrine or adding to the Word of God.