Gino Jennings On Soul Sleep

[mfblume]

...continued...

(2Co 5:8).. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

So, Paul was both was confident to experience this as well as fully willing to do so.

In fact to prove he was confident he would be absent from the body, I point you to the term RATHER. He was confident and, RATHER, WILLING. The term RATHER tells us that both being confident he would be absent from his body and willing to be absent from the body is the true context to be understand from this verse, because RATHER puts more emphasis on the willing aspect moreso than the CONFIDENT aspect. One cannot be confident in something apart from what one is, RATHER, WILLING to experience, implying the focus of confidence was the same focus of willingness. And that is being absent from the body and present with the Lord.

JAMIESON, FAUSSET AND BROWN: willing — literally, “well content.” Translate also, “To go (literally, migrate) from our home in the body, and to come to our home with the Lord.” We should prefer to be found alive at the Lord’s coming, and to be clothed upon with our heavenly body (2Co_5:2-4). But feeling, as we do, the sojourn in the body to be a separation from our true home “with the Lord,” we prefer even dissolution by death, so that in the intermediate disembodied state we may go to be “with the Lord” (Php_1:23).

The intermediate naked state of the soul, being disembodied, is what happens at death before the Lord's coming. But we want the coming so that we ARE AGAIN CLOTHED as we should be, and in an immortal body more suited to the state of our purpose which is everlasting dominion ON THE EARTH.

Sixth, Paul says we are confident, knowing to be dwelling at home in your own country "in the body" is to be "dwelling abroad or sojourning from" the Lord. This language is peculiar, and does not mean being inside a body vs being in front of the Lord, but living at home in the body vs sojourning on a foreign pilgrimage.

No no no. He was confident to be absent fro the body one day and present with the Lord.

When you read AND in between the note of his confidence and his willingness, it indicates two concepts related to the single conclusion of being absent from the body. Scholars agree

JOHNSON: We are confident. In the face of every peril, because we know that death, an absence from the body, would be to be present with the Lord. Note here the doctrine of the immaterial nature of the human spirit. It puts aside the body to be clothed with a new garment. It is absent from the body but present with the Lord. The body is not essential to its conscious existence. It does not sleep because the body sleeps. To Paul, death meant to be present at once with Christ, leaving the body behind. He labored (2Co_5:9) so that, whether present in the body or absent from it, he might be accepted with Christ.

I think the idea is more correctly saying that Paul would rather be alive when Jesus comes, but he knew he would die and was saying he'd rather be absent from the body, even though it meant nakedness for the soul, than to remain in that body and continue to groan, knowing full well a second body would be granted later.

And when he spoke the next verse, and said he wanted to be accepted to the Lord whether he was absent from the Lord I(which would entail presence in the body) or present with the Lord (meaning absence from the body) -- or it could mean the reverse... whether absent from the body or present with the body, he wanted to be acceptable to the Lord.

(2Co 5:9).. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

And that would mean that Paul wanted to be stand holy despite the groanings of being in a body that is susceptible to temptations, because the next verse mentions judgment for things done in the body.

Seventh, Paul already said our confidence and desire is to receive the resurrection body (vs 1-4).

The confidence is in knowing he would be absent from the body as per context.

Therefore, his statement in vs 6-8 must not be taken to mean something opposite to what he said in vs 1-4. But that is what your position does, you have him in vs 6-8 saying we are confident and willing to fly away from our body at death to be with the Lord, when he just got done saying specifically we DO NOT DESIRE such a thing at all, but RATHER to receive the resurrection body.

Again you misrepresent me.

Paul's confidence in, and desire to, be absent from the body to be present with the Lord was speaking in reference to the groaning he experienced in his body, and the better situation of not being in it and weighted down by the groanings it caused. And if anybody groaned in his body it would be Paul. Compared to living in a mortal body that causes groanings, or living naked without a body, Paul would rather be naked and absent from the body in an unclothed state to be with the Lord. But since he already stated it's not a groaning to simply be OUT of the mortal body, but clothed upon with an immortal one, aside from merely comparing clothed in a mortal body but apart from the Lord, or being unclothed in nakedness of soul to be present with the Lord, not for the mere moment considering the ultimate goal of being clothed upon with immortal flesh, his ultimate goal was to be clothed upon in immortal flesh to rule this world with Jesus forevermore.'

So in effect, you totally missed my true thoughts by being unaware of my position off mans eternal destiny on this physical earth following the resurrection, though I think you may recall I laid out this belief before on the forum months ago.

Eighth, the Bible teaches the spirit leaves the body at death and returns to God, which is nothing at all different than what Pail says in vs 6-8. Paul is explicitly affirming the truth of Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Amen! But that INCLUDES THE SOUL. He is actually saying ore than Ecclesiastes did.

Ninth, the spirit returning to God, and the body returning to the earth, is called "death" and according to Scripture the dead do not have consciousness.

I absolutely disagree with you here.

Your view contradicts the Scripture's descriptions of the dead and would have Paul doing likewise, when in fact he is affirming the truth of Scripture that immortality is fully received in resurrection, not death.

You must validate your claim that scripture defines death is what you say. Not just say it. I never said immortality is received at death and not resurrection. Paul here is ONLY talking about the BODY. He is saying DEATH is separate of the soul and spirit from the body to be present with the Lord in the case of a believer. And what dies is the BODY alone.

Tenth, if the dead continue after death with conscious awareness, they must have a body of some kind.

No. And why do you think that is a logical conclusion?

Only God can be a bodiless Spirit,

No. Paul said that our souls are NAKED without a body. And he was saying that because that is exactly what those who die before the second coming will experience, and verse 6 says he was confident in that fact. His confidence in verse 6 was not about resurrection, although he certainly was confident in that as well. But he was saying he was both confident and willing to experience absence from the body.

otherwise we are all omnipresent.

Why does being bodiless equate omnipresence? That is an illogical conclusion. Satan is a bodiless spirit. Prove he is not. Demons are bodiless spirits which is partly why they seek to possess people's bodies. Are they omnipresent?

So your view has people receiving an immortal body before the resurrection, contrary to Scripture.

Nonsense. I deny this totally, and it is not good form for you to claim I stand for something I explicitly deny, just because you lack awareness of my full beliefs on the issue and can only formerly conclude such a logical conclusion from one who believes what I do about verse 6.

Eleventh, if not, then people who have an immortal spirit body already are looking forward to getting a second immortal body at the resurrection. This is straight up Egyptian Book of the Dead mythology.

Again, you speak as though nakedness of the soul and spirit was not something Paul intended us to know shall happen upon death. Verse 3 agrees with verse 6 in the context I claim it is actually speaking.

Twelvth, nothing Paul said supports in anyway dead people being conscious, he said nothing about consciousness after death.

Again that is seriously wrong. Being absent from the body to be present with the Lord would never leave anyone thinking such a state is unconscious.

[mfblume]

The soul is literally separated from spirit.

Oh, the assumption that goes on here is something else! lol

Paul compared the joints and marrow with soul and SPIRIT, indicating that as marrow is trapped within bone, spirit is within soul. Soul is like a hard shell and contains our spirits. It's like the temple's holiest of holies, inside and beyond the holy place, which both were in turn inside and beyond the outer court. Spirit - holiest. Soul - holy place. Body - outer court.

Check Chester Wright's teachings on this as well.

And the soul of a person is THE NATURAL LIFE as well as the conscious us. But natural inclinations can overcome our spirits without exercising our spirits in spiritual things. The natural element of soul is inclined toward the body, which is the avenue of physical discernment and can make our souls bent toward the physical . That tendency has to break like cracking the bone to release the marrow.

The natural soulish part of doing OUR WILL and OUR IDEAS must give way, or be broken, for the spirit within, the holiest of holies where Jesus indwells us as in the temple, can have HIS WAY through us. Our minds are meant to be vehicles for the mind of Christ. But being independent of Christ's will causes us to do our own will.s That's why even Jesus prayed not for his will but for the Father's will to be done.

[mfblume]

The context of the dead knowing nothing is about goings on in earth. And those who sleep are seeing an emphasis on the BODY, not the soul.

James said the body without the spirit is dead. He was making a point about faith and works, but he used an already established and well known fact to make the point. That fact was the body is dead without the spirit. This means the element that is DEAD is BODY in that context.

I believe the human spirit is somewhat dead as well in other contexts of the issue, but not the ones listed in this thread. Our spirits are born of God's Spirit. How does that work for those who think the spirit is not anything more than whatever they claim it is? And a backslider can see his or her spirit die a SECOND TIME, which is what Jude meant about twice dead, and plucked up by the roots.

But since our spirits, not bodies or souls, are born again, as per Jesus, then the human spirit is something more than what folks are saying in this thread. The human spirit is the part of a human being that facilitates us with a spiritual consciousness. We are aware of the spiritual realm because we have spirits, just like our bodies cause us to be aware of the physical realm of earth. And that is the reason the dead know not anything. Death in the bible is defined as the spirit and soul leaving the body. The DEAD, therefore, in reference to PEOPLE are those whose bodies died and spirits and souls departed those bodies.

But the SOUL does not sleep.

Now, I am not saying the soul is immortal. I never said that. I believe the souls are immortal for believers. But I never made a claim about sinners. In fact, I DO NOT KNOW about sinners. I never put much thought into that, since it seems too impractical a study to engage in.

But in reference to the dead not knowing anything, that is in reference to what their bodies can tell them about earth, since the body is what causes us to be aware of the physical realm.

[TyronePalmer]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Did Jesus "sleep" in death?

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

ALMOST all misunderstanding of this topic is related to this error. When immortal soul believers read verses like these, mentally they read it like this:

But now is CHRISTS BODY risen from the dead and become the firstfruits of them DEAD BODIES that slept. For since by man came the DEATH OF THE BODY by man came also the resurrection of THE DEAD BODY.

When God is trying to teach them about death and resurrection they INSERT mentally that he is ONLY talking about death of the body. This is because their doctrine is that THE PERSON never dies. Only the body.

Therefore many verses where the Spirit is actually teaching us truth, they pervert by inserting their own doctrine into the text.

Thats how they can read the entire 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians, the place where there is more teaching about death and resurrection than anywhere else, like 50 some verses but ALL THEY SEE is the whole chapter ONLY speaks of the resurrection OF THE BODY.

Therefore the truth God is actually trying to teach bounces off of them.

And the error of those who believe in soul sleep is that they don't understand or believe what Jesus Christ Himself said! "Do not fear those who KILL THE BODY, but CANNOT KILL THE SOUL"

[TyronePalmer]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If Solomon were the wisest man that ever lived would Jesus then come and contradict what he taught?

Ecc 9:10



The grave here is SHEOL in the Hebrew or HADES in the Greek. When one dies they go there. Nothing happens there. There is no knowledge or wisdom there. All are unconcious there until they AWAKE unto judgment.

Either Jesus agreed with Solomon or Solomon was not so wise after all.

Jesus didn't contradict Solomon, He gave more wisdom on the subject of death, Hell, soul, resurrection, etc... than Solomon did!

Soul sleep is error, I'll continue to believe what my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ said about the matter!

And really the point of all this in these last days is that people don't want to believe or practice the teachings of Jesus!

[TyronePalmer]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Problem is that same verse that teaches the spirit goes back to God that gave it is teaching the spirits of ALL........not just the righteous goes back to God.

Ecc 12:5-7

5Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Solomon makes no difference between the righteous and the wicked. God grants us life and takes it back. All of us.

Neither does the verse say anything about our spirits rejoicing in Heavens eternal life. No. Just that it returns to God.

Was Solomon wiser or greater than Jesus?

[TyronePalmer]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

What is Peter preaching about? The fact that a man/person Jesus was slain. That this same one that was slain was raised up from death. The point is NOT......that a body was slain and resurrected but a PERSON.

Note the words "he" and "him" and "whom". Peter speaks of the MAN Jesus who died and rose again not merely his body, as it were a distinct person from his soul.


Davids gift was here showing what CHRIST HIMSELF said. He said his flesh would rest in hope BECAUSE God would not leave his soul in SHEOL.

His soul was his person. His person was in Sheol. The place Solomon said there was nothing going on. No work, device, wisdom, or knowledge.

This is what immortal soul teaching confuses and obscures.

The PERSON Jesus had to die including his soul. If Jesus SOUL did not die it would have been a sure sign he was a false Messiah.

It was prophesied of the true Messiah, the lamb of God:

Isaiah 53:10-12

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

So Jesus being the true Messiah fulfilled the prophecy. His soul died.

Man is a soul.

Gen. 2:7

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When man dies his soul dies. When God breathed into his nostrils MAN became a living soul.

Just like you keep quoting and repeating the same scriptures Mike, I'll repeat the revelation I received from Heaven. Death means separation from God, the soul of Jesus did die because He was separated from the Father in Hell. But His soul did not die in the sense you believe it did, as in He slept, didn't know anything, didn't feel anything, wasn't conscious of anything etc....

[TyronePalmer]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Immortal soul doctrine denies the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Paul said:


Immortal soul teaches that CHRIST......DID NOT DIE! They say ONLY HIS BODY DIED.

Immortal soul teaches THIS gospel:

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ's body died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that IT was buried, and that IT rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

This doctrine changes HE to IT.

So Isaiah prophesied that the lamb of God would give his SOUL an offering for sin and that he poured out his soul unto death, immortal soul heresy teaches his soul NEVER EXPERIENCED DEATH!

So there is the perversion. Paul taught CHRIST DIED for our sins. Immortal soul teaches CHRIST NEVER DIED, only his body.[/QUOTE]

LOL! Soul sleep is heresy! Jesus did experience death in hell, and His soul felt the pain of it!

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Simple. The dead refers to the body.. Which is why we read absence from the body is presence with the Lord.

James 2:..26....For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

But you can keep adding words that are not there to 2 cor 5.

See? Exactly what I said. When they see "the dead" in their own mind they change it to the "dead body". Thats the only way they can keep this doctrine going. We all agree the body dies. The problem is they have as they see it THE REAL PERSON still alive.

Paul writes of THEM that are asleep. To me that sounds personal. It is PERSONS that sleep unless one would make a persons body ANOTHER PERSON from their soul!

When Paul teaches the saints:

1 Thess 4:13

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

His purpose is to comfort them. Now IF Paul is simply talking about their DEAD BODIES and not the PERSONS as this doctrine asserts consider this. Are the bereaved sorrowing because they miss their loved ones DEAD BODIES that are asleep? Or are they sorrowing because they miss the PERSONS that are asleep?

Also note if his teaching here is to comfort them concerning their dead loved ones, why does he NOT EVEN MENTION.......the fact they are actually in Heaven with Jesus Christ right now? What would be sorrowful about that?

Isn't that the entire point of their doctrine? And YET Paul never mentions the thing that modern Christianity puts its hope in once!

Verse 14

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Many readers miss Pauls first point here, that he is talking about the RESURRECTION. Our faith is that Jesus died and ROSE AGAIN. Now when he proceeds by saying EVEN SO....meaning in like manner those who are ASLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him.

So he is not talking at all about bringing live saints down from Heaven when he returns. No he is talking about the dead, sleeping saints raising up from the dead EVEN AS JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD. For his next thought is exactly that.

Verses 15-16

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

He is not teaching them that living saints are going to come back down to the earth from Heaven but rather that the dead in Christ who are asleep are going to RISE.... FIRST.

After they rise, then they will meet the Lord Jesus first, before those who are alive and remain.

Verse 17.

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The resurrected saints after meeting with the "raptured saints" in the clouds will then all return to the earth together. So when Jesus returns to THE EARTH the saints who were asleep but are now alive again will be brought with him.

So amazing and consistent with the rest of Bible teaching about death and the afterlife, Paul says then, at the time this takes place we shall ever "be with" the Lord!

This absolutely contradicts the erroneous interpretation men try to force upon Pauls writing in 2 Cor 5:8 that as soon as we die THEN we are present with the Lord. Well if they are present with the Lord as soon as they die why does Paul say here at the resurrection of the dead we shall ever "be with the Lord"? Does not that mean they were NOT with the Lord before this event? Obviously.

Now let us examine perhaps the most striking blow to the doctrine of immortal soul possible.

Verse 18.

18Wherefore comfort one another with THESE words.

Pauls point was to comfort those who had loved ones that died. So he does this in verses 14-17.

The shocking thing is that NEVER ONCE does Paul give them comfort by saying its only their bodies that are dead! THEY THEMSELVES are actually alive right now with Jesus!

So when modern Preachers try to comfort saints by telling them their loved ones are now alive in Heaven "with the Lord" they are giving them a FALSE HOPE and comforting them with words that are DIFFERENT than the words Paul used to give them comfort.

So to be in agreement with the apostles doctrine given by Jesus Christ we only have authority to say the same thing Paul said in verses 14-17 when giving comfort to the bereaved.

[Michael The Disciple]

MBlume


But you can keep adding words that are not there to 2 cor 5.

The use of 2 Cor. 5:8 to prove men are alive with Jesus before the resurrection is perhaps the most OUT OF CONTEXT use of scripture in the Bible.

2 Cor. 5

1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

Dont forget Paul wrote the Corinthians earlier and taught them about this very thing. Out mortality being CLOTHED UPON with life. To be clothed with something, in this case immortality means to put it on. The same thing Paul says in his teaching about THE RESURRECTION.

At the RESURRECTION this corruptible will put on or be "clothed" with incorruption and our mortality be "clothed" with imortality.

1 Cor. 15:51-53

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So when Paul is writing the 2nd epistle to Corinth it was not making void what he already taught them. It was in THAT CONTEXT the saints at Corinth understood Paul to be writing.

But when he writes about their "groaning" earnestly for their heavenly body is he not again referencing the resurrection?

Romans 8:22-23

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

So Paul is teaching them about the resurrection day. The day we will get the NEW body he writes of. That is the context.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Here Paul is writing about being willing to be absent from the present body, our earthly home and being present with the Lord in the new.

How can we be sure he is NOT saying we will be with the Lord immediately on death and not rather when we are raised with a new body?

1 Thess. 4:16-17

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul plainly told the saints in Thessalonica they would ever be WITH THE LORD at the time he COMES!

Would he now contradict himself telling the saints at Corinth that THEY would be with Jesus when they die? Of course not!

Then Paul writes:

9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Are we going to receive the greatest reward of all, eternal life...before the day of judgment? Go to Heaven at death and perhaps be there thousands of years BEFORE WE ARE EVER JUDGED?

No friends.Its obvious that forcing 2 Cor. 5:8 to say as soon as we die we are in Heaven is out of the context of Pauls point in the verses before and after. We cannot pull the verse out of context from those verses and invent a new doctrine as men have done.

One day there will be a reformation in whats now thought of as the Apostolic Church. This immortal soul doctrine will be judged as false, repented of and discarded and we will come into closer conformity to the foundation doctrine of Christ.