Gino Jennings On Soul Sleep

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by TyronePalmer

Was Solomon wiser or greater than Jesus?

Absolutely! Jesus was the one who taught Solomon everything he knew!

[Apostolic1ness]

Jesus said in Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It appears Jesus saw the difference in body and soul and that the body could be killed but the soul would live.

God was manifest in the flesh and also possessed a body and soul just as a man would. However he died as a man that was cursed of God as a law breaker under the law. Galatians 3:13 "Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree." But when Christ's body was in the tomb his soul was descended into the lower parts of the earth, but was not left there.
His soul was active and led captivity captive. Unless one would believe the Spirit of God descended into the lower parts of the earth we must conclude that it was his human soul and yet his body was dead awaiting the Resurrection which took place three days later.
But concerning them that are asleep/dead in Christ under grace and not the law If Jesus' soul did not sleep even for the three days he was in the grave. Would our soul be active, alive, asleep, inactive where will our soul be? We will not descend into hell.

So what is the location of saved souls before the resurrection?

[Michael The Disciple]

Peter

Your soul (before Christ for sure) goes to Ades (ades is a place translated hell in English but is not hell!there was the soul of the reach man burned and suferd and the soul of Lazarus with Abraham too "23 And in hell(Ades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.")

Ok if what Jesus said about Abes Bosom concerns a state right after death how does it match up with Solomon said about the same place? Sheol/Hades.

Ecc 9:10

10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

The rich man was suffering and being tormented in a place where scripture says nothing happens?

Note that the Hebrew word translated here for GRAVE is the word "SHEOL" the same as in the Greek, "HADES".

Was Jesus the God who taught Solomon?

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Ok if what Jesus said about Abes Bosom concerns a state right after death how does it match up with Solomon said about the same place? Sheol/Hades.
some say this is a parable, Im not sure if it is or not. If not it is clear that the soul is judged at death in this case. If it is, it is still clear that this judgment happens at death and the event did not happen at the resurrection.
Ecc 9:10
The context of the scripture is living a fulfilled joyful life in this life. Solomon is not trying to give a description of the after life. His point is the things in the verses before verse 10 will not be possible when your dead.

The rich man was suffering and being tormented in a place where scripture says nothing happens?
Im not sure what your saying here. please clarify.
Note that the Hebrew word translated here for GRAVE is the word "SHEOL" the same as in the Greek, "HADES".

Was Jesus the God who taught Solomon?

.....behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

[Apostolic1ness]

Again is our soul as separate from our bodies as Jesus' was?
If so where does our soul go when our body is dead?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Again is our soul as separate from our bodies as Jesus' was?
If so where does our soul go when our body is dead?

You are still thinking of the soul as a "thing" that you "have", rather than as descriptive of what you are. "He lost his life."? OK, where did it go? Fell out of the pocket?

The ship sank, all souls were lost. Where'd they go?

The person goes to the grave, to Hades or Sheol, which is a descriptive term for describing the condition of being dead. Spirit goes back to God, body goes back to the earth, where does the person go? Well, we can say they too go into the heart of the earth (hades, the grave, Sheol) because at the funeral we buried their body. We might could even say they went to God, because their spirit did just that. We could also say they didn't go anywhere because technically "they" don't really exist except as a memory, because the PERSON is spirit and body joined together, which is no longer the case.

One thing we CANNOT say is they are currently experiencing anything approaching consciousness or sensory experience.

My posts on the previous page or two explain all this. Or, see the link in my signature to a thorough study on conditional immortality (not written by me).

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You are still thinking of the soul as a "thing" that you "have", rather than as descriptive of what you are. "He lost his life."? OK, where did it go? Fell out of the pocket?

The ship sank, all souls were lost. Where'd they go?

The person goes to the grave, to Hades or Sheol, which is a descriptive term for describing the condition of being dead. Spirit goes back to God, body goes back to the earth, where does the person go? Well, we can say they too go into the heart of the earth (hades, the grave, Sheol) because at the funeral we buried their body. We might could even say they went to God, because their spirit did just that. We could also say they didn't go anywhere because technically "they" don't really exist except as a memory, because the PERSON is spirit and body joined together, which is no longer the case.

So you would agree that a person has a spirit/soul that is not the flesh.

One thing we CANNOT say is they are currently experiencing anything approaching consciousness or sensory experience.

How do you explain the rich man and Laz?

My posts on the previous page or two explain all this. Or, see the link in my signature to a thorough study on conditional immortality (not written by me).

?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

?

How do you explain the rich man and Laz?

It's a parable, obviously. Interestingly, the rich man appears to be a reference to the high priest with his five brothers. The parable was given in response to the Pharisees mocking Jesus for his statement about not being able to serve both God and mammon.

But if one were to believe the parable were in fact a literal description of the intermediate state, one runs into numerous problems. For example, how is it the rich man is dead, and has left his body behind in the grave, yet has a tongue and is thirsting and wants Lazarus (another disembodied ghost) to use his finger to dip some water on the rich man's tongue? How is it the tormented and the comforted can see each other and communicate with each other? (What kind of peaceful heavenly rest is it to be within seeing and talking distance of people burning in hell, as they plead for you to help them?) Where's everyone else? Why was the rich mam buried, and not just his body, seeing as the beggar went to recline at Abraham's bosom (chest)? The language requires that the rich man was in a grave, not just his body. If literal, it seems rich people automatically burn in hell, and poor people get the good stuff after death (contrary to the whole concept of justification by faith). People who claim this parable as literal seem to reject it's obvious literal teaching, because I've yet to see anyone become and stay a homeless beggar to escape hell, nor do preachers use this to warn people against having money.

[Esaias]

So you would agree that a person has a spirit/soul that is not the flesh.

You confound spirit with soul. Spirit is that which causes flesh to live, producing the soul. The soul is not a thing that floats away out of the body at death. And the man became a living soul, not "and a living soul came into the man." The catholic church teaches "soul" and "spirit" are basically synonymous, and refer to the non physical, conscious part of man, that leaves the body at death. This is pagan, and unscriptural. Scripturally, the flesh is joined with spirit, and the result is called "a soul". At death, the spirit returns to God, the flesh returns to the grave. The person (or "soul") is no longer alive. They are said to be "asleep" because death is temporary, they will "awake" (resurrect) to be judged.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Jesus said in Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It appears Jesus saw the difference in body and soul and that the body could be killed but the soul would live.

Jesus said BOTH body AND SOUL can be destroyed. He most certainly did NOT say the body can be killed but the soul lives on.

Men can kill the body, but there is hope, called the resurrection. But in GEHENNA (which is NOT the grave, NOT hades, NOT Sheol, NOT where you go if killed by mere men) GOD HIMSELF will destroy not only the body but the soul as well. Gehenna is a garbage dump, and is used as a metaphor or symbol of the Judgment of God. The final judgment results in the permanent destruction of the wicked, thus the body AND soul are destroyed.

Physical death is a temporary situation. A saint can be confident that if this body is destroyed, they have another they will receive in the resurrection. Thus, they shall live on forever. But those facing the wrath of God have no such hope, they will be destroyed in the judgment.