Revelation 18

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

[/U]

I dont believe this is speaking of a specific city of Babylon but rather the sinful world. Verse 24 says "in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth"
how could the blood of all that were slain upon the earth be in Babylon? unless Babylon is referring to the sinful world.

In cross referencing the verse, which is a preferred method of interpretation, we can find where Jesus actually uttered the same language and identified what city is the guilty one.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you PROPHETS, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED UPON THE EARTH, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:37 O JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


Compare that again to this:

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev_18:24 And in her was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, and of saints, and of ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I don't think it has happened yet, either.
It isn't speaking of the city of Babylon belonging to Nebuchaddrezar which remains uninhabited.
It is in reference to a real, existing city at that time. I think Rome.
Rome still exists and isn't completely abandoned, therefore it hasn't happened yet.
Not Jerusalem 70ad, since Jerusalem is still inhabited. And Jesus is coming back to rule over an uninhabited city.

Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great
t men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

The inhabited is speaking to the originals "Judean, and Israeli remnant. lineages who are no longer are around to voice their opinions. The economic power is the fertile crescent which Israel was the capstone of agriculture. Hence the reason why all empires from Babylon to Rome wanted it.

So, did anyone figure out what economic power Revelation is speaking of if it is yet in the future?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I vote no. It seems to happen about the time Jesus comes. Some will say it was Jerusalem ad 70 I'm sure. If so they have a "gap" problem every bit as big as the "dispensationalists".

The thing is we need to be careful about assuming how long a vision takes to be fulfilled, how long it lasts, and how long between visions, without specific statements in the text.

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The thing is we need to be careful about assuming how long a vision takes to be fulfilled, how long it lasts, and how long between visions, without specific statements in the text.

The time it takes for the prophecies to come to past quite often is embedded in the context.




Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev_1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear THE WORDS OF THIS PROPHECY, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and SEALED TILL THE TIME OF THE END.
And then…
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT the sayings of the prophecy of this book: FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.


1Jn 2:18 Little children, IT IS THE LAST TIME: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, EVEN NOW are there many antichrists; whereby WE KNOW THAT IT IS THE LAST TIME.

All I know is what the Apostles knew, and if they are wrong, then the Bible is wrong, as they declared multiple times they were in the last days/times.

They are correct.


I have seen no viable (BIBLICAL) alternative opinion as to who the two witnesses were, just opinions. Mine is an opinion as well that seems at this time to at least have some scripture to try to reveal who/what are the witnesses/olive trees/candlesticks/prophets may represent.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Bowas

The time it takes for the prophecies to come to past quite often is embedded in the context.




Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev_1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear THE WORDS OF THIS PROPHECY, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and SEALED TILL THE TIME OF THE END.
And then…
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT the sayings of the prophecy of this book: FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.


1Jn 2:18 Little children, IT IS THE LAST TIME: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, EVEN NOW are there many antichrists; whereby WE KNOW THAT IT IS THE LAST TIME.

All I know is what the Apostles knew, and if they are wrong, then the Bible is wrong, as they declared multiple times they were in the last days/times.

They are correct.

And just a side note regarding "time texts" and "last days" terminology as used in Scripture.

Genesis 49:1 begins a prophecy by Jacob concerning what would happen to his sons "in the last days". This extended prophecy includes such things as Simon and Levi being scattered in Israel. Yet, neither Simeon nor Levi were scattered at all. Rather, their descendants were. Moreover, that scattering of Levi took place during the Conquest. The scattering of Simeon occurred during the centuries that followed.

From this we learn that:

1. The last days began around the time of the Exodus and Conquest of Canaan.

2. Prophecies made to persons concerning them specifically are often fulfilled centuries later in their descendants.

3. There are more than one "last days".

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And just a side note regarding "time texts" and "last days" terminology as used in Scripture.

Genesis 49:1 begins a prophecy by Jacob concerning what would happen to his sons "in the last days". This extended prophecy includes such things as Simon and Levi being scattered in Israel. Yet, neither Simeon nor Levi were scattered at all. Rather, their descendants were. Moreover, that scattering of Levi took place during the Conquest. The scattering of Simeon occurred during the centuries that followed.

From this we learn that:

1. The last days began around the time of the Exodus and Conquest of Canaan.

2. Prophecies made to persons concerning them specifically are often fulfilled centuries later in their descendants.

3. There are more than one "last days".

[mizpeh]

My post should have said "Not Jerusalem 70ad, since Jerusalem is still inhabited. And Jesus is coming back to rule over an inhabited city and not an uninhabited city."

[Michael The Disciple]

Bowas

Who are the two witnesses or what are the two witnesses. \I doubt they are people as some claim, but represent something.

Maybe Old and New Testament. Maybe law and the prophets.

Maybe.

But what about specifically?

Rev. 11:2-12

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Plural not singular. TWO PROPHETS.

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Maybe.

But what about specifically?

Rev. 11:2-12

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Plural not singular. TWO PROPHETS.

Consider this again with your point of the "they." (it doesn't say "prophets. That's man's interjection)


Zechariah 4:6, maybe the two witnesses is quite simply, Jesus.

"These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands that stand before the Lord of the earth." (Rev 11:4)

The OLIVE TREES and LAMPSTANDS of Revelation 11:4 is a DIRECT reference to the OLIVE TREES and LAMPSTAND of Zechariah 4.

The fact that these two olive trees and lampstands of Rev 11:4 “STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE EARTH” is a quote of Zechariah 4:14: “These are the TWO ANNOINTED ONES who STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE EARTH.”

(Zech 4:14) Zechariah 4 is a vision of two olive trees beside a lampstand in which the two olive trees are SAID to SYMBOLIZE “TWO ANNOINTED ONES” who are clearly identified in Zechariah 3 and 4 as Zerubbabel and Joshua--the KING and HIGH PRIEST.

In New Testament times this can ONLY be one person, JESUS CHRIST who as MESSIAH is KING and HIGH PRIEST as stated in Hebrews 5:10 and 7:1.

The fact that Rev 11:4 is a virtual quote of Zechariah 4 in nearly every detail. And in Zechariah 4 the olive trees and lamp stand represent the king and high priest, this strongly implies that the same meaning is intended in Rev 11:4. And if that is TRUE the two witnesses cannot be ANYONE other than JESUS CHRIST.

[Michael The Disciple]

Literal prophets who are here on earth and living, can "stand before the Lord"

1 Kings 17:1

1And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.

Not saying Elijah will be one of the two witnesses but just making a point.

Sometimes the "spiritual" or "symbolic" points to the "literal".

Elijah was a literal prophet who was spiritually standing before God's throne.