Revelation 18

[shag]

Esaias said: “the fact is that there is NO evidence that the writing of Revelation preceded AD 70”

Rev.11:1-2 speaks of the alter, the court outside the temple (still “standing”).





Makes me think of
Heb. 10:11
OT priesthood still vainly attempting to make sacrifices for sin in the temple, 30 years after Jesus resurrection.(dating of Hebrews)

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by shag

Esaias said: “the fact is that there is NO evidence that the writing of Revelation preceded AD 70”

Rev.11:1-2 speaks of the alter, the court outside the temple (still “standing”).





Makes me think of
Heb. 10:11
OT priesthood still vainly attempting to make sacrifices for sin in the temple, 30 years after Jesus resurrection.(dating of Hebrews)

If Rev 11 speaks of the first century temple who were the 2 witnesses?

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You showed NT authors QUOTING OT SCRIPTURES, and are pointing to differences between an English translation of a Greek quotation of a Greek OT on the one hand, and an English translation of a HEBREW OT on the other? Seriously? Revelation isn't quoting Matthew, nor vice versa.



Of course He prophesied the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem. That, however, is not Revelation 18.



This is not AD 70 material. This has to do with His glorification and Ascension to the throne in fulfillment of Daniel 7. See my thread "The Son of Man" over in the Apostolic Articles section.

I notice you didn't touch the dating of the Revelation issue...

No. Revelation is not quoting Matt, but they are the same thing. Matt is speaking directly to the people and the city by name, whereas in revelation it is doing the same thing but is using symbolic language to say the same thing.


Actually Rev 18 is in fact referring to Jerusalem's destruction in AD70 and as pre the method of the book, it is using symbolic type language.


Jesus telling them that some of them would not die until the coming of the Son of man surely was referring to AD70.

The dating of Revelation can get bogged down and there are some points to both views, so it seems the internal evidence is what we should try to use to decided. There are several points to indicate an early date writing, not the least of which, the temple is still standing.

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If Rev 11 speaks of the first century temple who were the 2 witnesses?

Who are the two witnesses or what are the two witnesses. \I doubt they are people as some claim, but represent something.

Maybe Old and New Testament. Maybe law and the prophets. It is also possible and seems more probable it is in fact Jesus. During seige of Jerusalem in AD 70, there was not witness in the city at all, as all the Christians had fled.

here is an article I am considering.


I saw this article and thought it interesting.

I have tried over the years to see who or what the Bible says these two witnesses are.
I had considered, “Spirit and Word,”
as found in Zechariah 4:6, but maybe the two witnesses is quite simply, Jesus.

"These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth." (Rev 11:4)

The OLIVE TREES and LAMPSTANDS of Revelation 11:4 is a DIRECT reference to the OLIVE TREES and LAMPSTAND of Zechariah 4. The fact that these two olive trees and lampstands of Rev 11:4 “STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE EARTH” is a quote of Zechariah 4:14: “These are the TWO ANNOINTED ONES who STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE EARTH.” (Zech 4:14) Zechariah 4 is a vision of two olive trees beside a lampstand in which the two olive trees are SAID to SYMBOLIZE “TWO ANNOINTED ONES” who are clearly identified in Zechariah 3 and 4 as Zerubbabel and Joshua--the KING and HIGH PRIEST.

In New Testament times this can ONLY be one person, JESUS CHRIST who as MESSIAH is KING and HIGH PRIEST as stated in Hebrews 5:10 and 7:1. The fact that Rev 11:4 is a virtual quote of Zechariah 4 in nearly every detail. And in Zechariah 4 the olive trees and lampstand represent the king and high priest, this strongly implies that the same meaning is intended in Rev 11:4. And if that is TRUE the two witnesses cannot be ANYONE other than JESUS CHRIST.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Bowas

Who are the two witnesses or what are the two witnesses. \I doubt they are people as some claim, but represent something.

Maybe Old and New Testament. Maybe law and the prophets. It is also possible and seems more probable it is in fact Jesus. During seige of Jerusalem in AD 70, there was not witness in the city at all, as all the Christians had fled.

here is an article I am considering.


I saw this article and thought it interesting.

I have tried over the years to see who or what the Bible says these two witnesses are.
I had considered, “Spirit and Word,”
as found in Zechariah 4:6, but maybe the two witnesses is quite simply, Jesus.

"These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth." (Rev 11:4)

The OLIVE TREES and LAMPSTANDS of Revelation 11:4 is a DIRECT reference to the OLIVE TREES and LAMPSTAND of Zechariah 4. The fact that these two olive trees and lampstands of Rev 11:4 “STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE EARTH” is a quote of Zechariah 4:14: “These are the TWO ANNOINTED ONES who STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE EARTH.” (Zech 4:14) Zechariah 4 is a vision of two olive trees beside a lampstand in which the two olive trees are SAID to SYMBOLIZE “TWO ANNOINTED ONES” who are clearly identified in Zechariah 3 and 4 as Zerubbabel and Joshua--the KING and HIGH PRIEST.

In New Testament times this can ONLY be one person, JESUS CHRIST who as MESSIAH is KING and HIGH PRIEST as stated in Hebrews 5:10 and 7:1. The fact that Rev 11:4 is a virtual quote of Zechariah 4 in nearly every detail. And in Zechariah 4 the olive trees and lampstand represent the king and high priest, this strongly implies that the same meaning is intended in Rev 11:4. And if that is TRUE the two witnesses cannot be ANYONE other than JESUS CHRIST.

will Jesus die more than once? the two witnesses are clearly not Jesus. Rev 11:8 says their bodies shall lie in the street of the great city where Jesus was crucified. also their bodies will not be put in graves. come on guys.....

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

[/B]
will Jesus die more than once? the two witnesses are clearly not Jesus. Rev 11:8 says their bodies shall lie in the street of the great city where Jesus was crucified. also their bodies will not be put in graves. come on guys.....

No, Jesus will not die more than once, but his word was dead in Jerusalem for 3.5 years during the Gentile siege of Jerusalem in AD70.
You are aware the book of revelation is a book of symbols and imagery that is not to be taken as literal descriptions, but rather literal events described in symbolic language as being "signified."

Rev 1:1.. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and SIGNIFIED it by his angel unto his servant John:..

Did you notice the same phraseology being used in Revelation is also found in Zech?

Lamp stands, Candlesticks, who stands before the Lord?

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Bowas

No, Jesus will not die more than once, but his word was dead in Jerusalem for 3.5 years during the Gentile siege of Jerusalem in AD70.
You are aware the book of revelation is a book of symbols and imagery that is not to be taken as literal descriptions, but rather literal events described in symbolic language as being "signified."

Rev 1:1.. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and SIGNIFIED it by his angel unto his servant John:..

Did you notice the same phraseology being used in Revelation is also found in Zech?

Lamp stands, Candlesticks, who stands before the Lord?

I think we can use the "everything is a symbol" excuse to hide the fact that we dont know. You can find the similar phrases on just about any topic you want. Not everything is a symbol and quite a bit of revelation self reveals the symbols used. Does the scripture say that God's word was dead for 3.5 years? What does God's word say about itself? does it not endure forever? We could just be honest and say we dont really know or we can continue to twist and turn and apply until we confuse ourselves and all that hear us.

[Michael The Disciple]

Bowas

Who are the two witnesses or what are the two witnesses. \I doubt they are people as some claim, but represent something.

Maybe Old and New Testament. Maybe law and the prophets.

Maybe.

But what about specifically?

Rev. 11:2-12

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Plural not singular. TWO PROPHETS.

[Michael The Disciple]

Literal prophets who are here on earth and living, can "stand before the Lord"

1 Kings 17:1

1And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.

Not saying Elijah will be one of the two witnesses but just making a point.

Sometimes the "spiritual" or "symbolic" points to the "literal".

Elijah was a literal prophet who was spiritually standing before God's throne.

[Michael The Disciple]

Bowas

And in Zechariah 4 the olive trees and lampstand represent the king and high priest, this strongly implies that the same meaning is intended in Rev 11:4.
And if that is TRUE the two witnesses cannot be ANYONE other than JESUS CHRIST.

Does THIS mean WE are Jesus Christ?

Rev 1:5-6

Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.