Revelation 18

[shag]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If Rev 11 speaks of the first century temple who were the 2 witnesses?

Beats me, that was way before my time

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Esaias said: “the fact is that there is NO evidence that the writing of Revelation preceded AD 70”

Rev.11:1-2 speaks of the alter, the court outside the temple (still “standing”).

Please explain? You understand it to be speaking literally of the literal altar at Herod's temple?

Also please explain how Revelation mentioning altar and temple proves anything regarding when it was written?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Bowas

No. Revelation is not quoting Matt, but they are the same thing. Matt is speaking directly to the people and the city by name, whereas in revelation it is doing the same thing but is using symbolic language to say the same thing.

What you've just done is called "begging the question". You assert they are the same thing (I guess by that you mean referring to the same people, city, time, and events?) yet have not shown that to be the case, you are just reasserting your claim.

Actually Rev 18 is in fact referring to Jerusalem's destruction in AD70 and as pre the method of the book, it is using symbolic type language.

Well, yes, that's what you have been claiming (but not demonstrating).

Can you explain the following?

In Revelation 18 Babylon is destroyed, apparently by the ten horns of the Beast. Immediately after that the Battle of Armageddon occurs.

In AD70 Jerusalem was destroyed by Roman armies. Who were the ten horns representing? And what event, AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem, corresponded to Armageddon and the destruction of both the Beast and the False Prophet?

If Rev 18 is the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem, then what is Rev 19 referring to? Also, why do you assert the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem was a/the "coming of the Lord" if there is no coming of the Lord described in Rev 18, but rather in Rev 19 AFTER the destruction of Babylon, during which the two Beasts are destroyed?

My suggestion to you is that the prophecies do not match actual history, so then either the prophecies themselves are false, or your interpretation of the prophecies is in error. Of course, I lean towards the latter.

Jesus telling them that some of them would not die until the coming of the Son of man surely was referring to AD70.

Surely it did not. See? I can make assertions with no evidence as well. Of course, I DID refer you to a thread I made which explains in depth WHY I believe my assertion is correct, but I suspect you did not read it.

The dating of Revelation can get bogged down and there are some points to both views, so it seems the internal evidence is what we should try to use to decided. There are several points to indicate an early date writing, not the least of which, the temple is still standing.

Nonsense. There is nothing to suggest Revelation was written prior to AD70, and everything suggests otherwise, that it was written in the last decade of the first century. There is no "bogging down" except when people don't want to go where the evidence plainly and necessarily leads because they know it completely overthrows their whole view of Revelation.

As for the temple still standing (I assume you mean Rev 11?), I guess in the midst of all the symbolism we are to suddenly and inexplicably switch gears and go strictly literal?

Okay, let's do that, shall we?

When did the apostle John literally measure Herod's Temple while simultaneously being in exile on Patmos? How did he not get executed immediately for trespassing in the sanctuary, since he was not a priest? And why did he need to, since everyone knew the exact measurements of the Temple anyway already?

Also, apparently the prophecy was for the gentiles to have the court outside the temple, thus the sanctuary and altar would be protected. But that's not what actually and literally happened, is it?

And when were there literally two witnesses/prophets calling down fire from heaven and smiting the earth with literal plagues, fire coming out of their mouths, etc? To be preaching for 3.5 years, then killed by a seven headed monster, dead for three and a half days, literally resurrected, then ascend to heaven in front of everyone? Which causes a literal earthquake that wipes out 10% of the city?

When did all of this happen? Godzilla vs Rodan? Really?

Or is everything symbolic EXCEPT that one little part that you say proves Revelation was written before AD 70? A little too convenient, perhaps?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Bowas

No, Jesus will not die more than once, but his word was dead in Jerusalem for 3.5 years during the Gentile siege of Jerusalem in AD70.

Rev 11:3 says the two witnesses preach for 1,260 days (3.5 years). Looks like you're confused?

You are aware the book of revelation is a book of symbols and imagery that is not to be taken as literal descriptions,

Except when it suits you, like "temple still standing"?

but rather literal events described in symbolic language as being "signified."

What was Armageddon? The one AFTER Jerusalem's destruction? Oh, and is New Jerusalem also a literal city, like Babylon?

Did you notice the same phraseology being used in Revelation is also found in Zech?

Lamp stands, Candlesticks, who stands before the Lord?

Well, I think I noticed you seem to be all over the place, 10 miles wide but only one inch deep. I'm not trying to be mean, but seriously, your presentation here is about on the same level as Jack Van Impe (y'all driving the same car, he's gone into a trance staring at the horizon in the windshield, and you dozed off staring at the horizon in the rear view mirror).

You really should read that thread I mentioned, it'll do you good.

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

I think we can use the "everything is a symbol" excuse to hide the fact that we dont know. You can find the similar phrases on just about any topic you want. Not everything is a symbol and quite a bit of revelation self reveals the symbols used. Does the scripture say that God's word was dead for 3.5 years? What does God's word say about itself? does it not endure forever? We could just be honest and say we dont really know or we can continue to twist and turn and apply until we confuse ourselves and all that hear us.

If you read what I write, I admit I don't have all the answers. If you don't like what I think I see, either show me I am wrong or ignore me. I said, and gave some examples of what the two witnesses may be, but I am quite certain they are not two men.

What is a witness? Who may be a witness? I gave scripture from Zechariah that are a key to the puzzle no doubt.

Here is a couple of more witnesses, which may further support Jesus is what's being referred to in Rev 11.

Joh_8:18.. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Maybe.

But what about specifically?

Rev. 11:2-12

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Plural not singular. TWO PROPHETS.

Consider this again with your point of the "they." (it doesn't say "prophets. That's man's interjection)


Zechariah 4:6, maybe the two witnesses is quite simply, Jesus.

"These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands that stand before the Lord of the earth." (Rev 11:4)

The OLIVE TREES and LAMPSTANDS of Revelation 11:4 is a DIRECT reference to the OLIVE TREES and LAMPSTAND of Zechariah 4.

The fact that these two olive trees and lampstands of Rev 11:4 “STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE EARTH” is a quote of Zechariah 4:14: “These are the TWO ANNOINTED ONES who STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE EARTH.”

(Zech 4:14) Zechariah 4 is a vision of two olive trees beside a lampstand in which the two olive trees are SAID to SYMBOLIZE “TWO ANNOINTED ONES” who are clearly identified in Zechariah 3 and 4 as Zerubbabel and Joshua--the KING and HIGH PRIEST.

In New Testament times this can ONLY be one person, JESUS CHRIST who as MESSIAH is KING and HIGH PRIEST as stated in Hebrews 5:10 and 7:1.

The fact that Rev 11:4 is a virtual quote of Zechariah 4 in nearly every detail. And in Zechariah 4 the olive trees and lamp stand represent the king and high priest, this strongly implies that the same meaning is intended in Rev 11:4. And if that is TRUE the two witnesses cannot be ANYONE other than JESUS CHRIST.

[Michael The Disciple]

Bowas

Consider this again with your point of the "they." (it doesn't say "prophets. That's man's interjection)

Really?

Rev 11:10

10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Two prophets.

[Apostolic1ness]

In Zechariah 4 the two olive trees are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. Where is it found that these two are the king and the priest?

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Really?

Rev 11:10

10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Two prophets.

True. It does say prophets, but they are identified also as two candlesticks, two olive trees, two witnesses which takes us back to Zech 4, where they are the anointed ones and Zech calls them King and High priest. Who, in all of scripture can be identified as more than one office, yet be One? The entire book of Revelation is confined to the first verse.

Rev 1:1.. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Bowas

True. It does say prophets, but they are identified also as two candlesticks, two olive trees, two witnesses which takes us back to Zech 4, where they are the anointed ones and Zech calls them King and High priest. Who, in all of scripture can be identified as more than one office, yet be One? The entire book of Revelation is confined to the first verse.

Rev 1:1.. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Each time High Priest is used in Zechariah it is conjoined to a name Joshua and Josedech.

I dont see where Zech calls the candlestick or olive trees King and priest. can you provide the text.