UPC, ALJC, PAW, etc.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

seem the Pastor needs wisdom. In the case you mentioned here he has done more damage than good for sure. A pastor can preach against sin in a caring way that the people will appreciate and still understand the severity.

Agreed. Can you provide an example of how this would play out?

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

The problem is they don’t understand God’s ways and want to figure it all out logically. I’ve seen men preach hard on standards with love and compassion and seen first time visitors there filled with Holy Ghost. Actually many times.....

Who is the "they?" The preachers or the hearers?

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Holy Roller

Any one here affiliated with these organizations?

As a regular poster here, I know opinions on these denominations vary, but what's some specific thoughts? The pros and cons?

I was baptized in Jesus' name and filled with the Spirit about thirty years ago in a UPCI church. I have remained UPCI since then. I've never really had any other options. In the metropolitan area I live in, besides UPCI churches, there are a couple of independent/non-denominational Oneness churches. One is ultra-conservative, and the other is ultra-liberal and never addresses holiness principles at all. Neither would work for me.

Over the time I've attended a UPCI church, I have definitely seen a change in attitude in the congregation toward the pastor's authority. Through most of the 90s it still seemed that most would follow the pastor's convictions and standards without a great deal of explanation or defense of his viewpoints, just because he was the man of God, but that seems to have all but vanished. People don't follow just because the pastor says so. They need an explanation--and still may or may not accept it. Now, at church they may look the part, but on their own time, well, that's different.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by derAlte

I have to say this is a really good question. I think everyone needs to know why they believe what they say they believe...and also be able to justify it by Scripture. I once heard a very conservative pastor state many years ago that God never changes as justification for preserving his church as a time capsule of the 1960s Pentecost that he grew up in. He is absolutely correct when he states that God never changes. Not only does God not change, but the Word is forever settled in heaven. But this good pastor misses the point. The God of Eternity never changes nor do His principles but our interpretation of those principles and our subsequent response to the ever-changing world around us does. The responses by 1960s ministers to the world they lived in made sense at the time but are not all forever settled in heaven. There is a difference between cultural Pentecost and Biblical Pentecost.

Biblical doctrines and Biblical holiness lifestyle principles really are in that old Bible of ours, and can withstand scrutiny. It must be a living part of our walk with God. But it is unnecessary to hang onto lifestyle choices encouraged by the ministry in response to 1920s issues only because we are trying to defend tradition. I've heard don't move ancient landmarks. I agree, but some things that are called ancient landmarks aren't really. On the other hand, there may be good reasons why something was preached against back then. Those reasons may still be valid. But one doesn't need to sacrifice their intellectual honesty defending something that isn't relevant anymore.

I've seen groups among us that have such a watchdog mentality. Instead of looking at a lost world, their eyes are on each other and they spent all their time nitpicking any tiny deviance from their particular version of groupthink.

There are foundational doctrines that simply cannot be compromised. If a pastor in all sincerity no longer agrees with certain doctrines the rest of the fellowship deems unmovable, he should, with a good spirit, find another fellowship he is more in tune with. Ultimately, we will all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ who will judge our motives. For the non-foundational stuff, we need to let God be Judge and stop trying to work above our pay grade.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

A teacher is to teach Thus Saith The Lord, book, chapter, and verse. Just because the teacher suddenly gets "new light" on something doesn't mean anything, rather instead everything has to be presented book chapter verse. And the congregation accepts book chapter and verse regardless of their personal preferences, history, whatever, cause a congregation of Christians is a congregation of dead folks who's personal wants and wishes have been buried and replaced with God's Will.

If not, if book chapter and verse butts heads with personal wants wishes and issues, and book chapter and verse don't prevail? That person or congregation has much bigger issues and needs to get saved all over again. Because either Jesus, the Incarnate Word, is Lord of ALL, or not at all.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Antipas

This is why I have reservations taking our queues of opposition from shifting cultural standards and not just staying grounded in Scripture. Beards shouldn't have been condemned. The licentious revelry of the Hippy Movement should have been condemned.

That makes too much good sense.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

I think you missed the point. The point is there are still those in the Church who came out of a lifestyle of rebellion that was identified by their long hair and facial hair. When they were converted they tried to get as far away from that identity as possible so they cut their hair and shaved. It was about identity and representation.

IMAO any Pastor with any sense would rather keep some things in place than cause mass confusion and disunity in a local Church. To me its the safest thing to do.

That makes some sense.

But that brings up something I've noticed.

In the world, a person can break from a lifestyle, change the way they dress, talk, socialize, etc.... and they do it because they are benefiting in some way from the change. For example, an overweight person might change their eating habits, manner of dress, places to eat at, and appearance to break away from that old self. Some under go a makeover of sorts for "New Year, new me", kinda thing. Human beings change for the benefit of social recognition, health, legal reasons, etc. Gang members with tattoos up their arms might have a close call, leave the gang, get cleaned up, etc. However, they seem to understand the what and why of what they're doing. And even though the previous gang member now wears nothing but long sleeves, he doesn't argue that his cousin from Tennessee is a gang thug because he wears a muscle shirt when out working on the truck.

But in Pentecost... these blood bought, Holy Spirit empowered, Bible loving, God fearing people... are as fragile as a snowflake. They leave a Hippie commune, cut their hair, shave their beards, and now suddenly... everyone has to do that or else they'll fall apart and back slide or something. Did they forget... "THEY" came from a commune, not the new guy who has a beard and works at the local factory? And why do these saints also crystalize the way they look at people to the point of every time they see a pic of Charles Spurgeon, they feel in their core that because he has a beard, he must have been a dope smoking Hippie like they were??? It's just a bit... immature to me. Kinda silly. Contrived, maybe for the sake of control and manipulation? I don't know. It's just... weird.

I've never encountered a more fragile people whose personal experiences bring personal convictions that must be enforced on everyone... or they give up on God.

I mean, if a pastor said, "Look folks, this beard standard isn't in the Bible, we're chucking it." If the people have a love of the Word... they would rejoice, even if they personally would remain clean shaven because of having come out of the Hippy movement. But we talk about it like if a pastor turned to the Word... half the church would spin out of control. That doesn't seem spiritually, emotionally, or mentally healthy to me. How can someone filled with the Almighty God be so fragile and not understand why they do something personally, and why another wouldn't???

I just don't get it.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Antipas

That makes some sense.

But that brings up something I've noticed.

In the world, a person can break from a lifestyle, change the way they dress, talk, socialize, etc.... and they do it because they are benefiting in some way from the change. For example, an overweight person might change their eating habits, manner of dress, places to eat at, and appearance to break away from that old self. Some under go a makeover of sorts for "New Year, new me", kinda thing. Human beings change for the benefit of social recognition, health, legal reasons, etc. Gang members with tattoos up their arms might have a close call, leave the gang, get cleaned up, etc. However, they seem to understand the what and why of what they're doing. And even though the previous gang member now wears short sleeves, he doesn't argue that his cousin from Tennessee is a gang thug because he wears a muscle shirt when out working on the truck.

But in Pentecost... these blood bought, Holy Spirit empowered, Bible loving, God fearing people... are as fragile as a snowflake. They leave a Hippie commune, cut their hair, shave their beards, and now suddenly... everyone has to do that or else they'll fall apart and back slide or something. Did they forget... "THEY" came from a commune, not the new guy who has a beard and works at the local factory? And why do these saints also crystalize the way they look at people to the point of every time they see a pic of Charles Spurgeon, they feel in their core that because he has a beard, he must have been a dope smoking Hippie like they were??? It's just a bit... immature to me. Kinda silly. Contrived, maybe for the sake of control and manipulation? I don't know. It's just... weird.

I've never encountered a more fragile people whose personal experiences bring personal convictions that must be enforced on everyone... or they give up on God.

I just don't get it.

My, my, my. The altars are open.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Ehud

Agreed. Can you provide an example of how this would play out?

It would go something like this.
Pastor: Church I just want everyone to know that a few days ago the "Doe" family came to me in confidence and private and wanted to talk to me about their struggle with letting go of Jerry Springer.
Well Church I have you to know we still stand against the Devilvission around here and if you got a tv your not going to be serving in any capacity in this church.
now God gave me this message while I was a fishing on my 80 acres saturday because I didnt have time to stop by the church this week and fall asleep at my desk...I mean praying in my office... now if this offends you, you dont have the Holy Ghost and your not submitted to your Pastor. You know I just want you to be saved.....

Boy didnt God speak to us this morning? He really walked up our driveway and gnocked on our front door didnt he?

I dont know why the "Doe" family stopped coming to church, I guess the Fire was getting too hot for them and they were offended at the Word of God....

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Antipas

I've never encountered a more fragile people whose personal experiences bring personal convictions that must be enforced on everyone... or they give up on God.

I just don't get it.

This is what I don't understand. If all things hippie are forever ago, have these folks not grown at all in their faith? Can they not see that the mustachioed gentleman next to them is not in rebellion? Why are we burdening others instead of encouraging the former hippie to mature?