To Beard or Not to Beard, That is The Question

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I understand that. But pretend you are a young soon-to-be pastor-in-training. The elder(s) have taught you Scripture, and you have been helped along in developing your call to shepherd the flock. And they said to you "Now here is how you make rules and regulations and standards for the flock to follow that aren't written in the Word, and here is how you help to make sure you don't go off the rails." What exactly would you have been taught in that regard?

I've been there, but always made sure that I didn't go down the rabbit hole. Made up rules and regulations are for organizations and the groups that one chooses to associate with. No one knows my church family like I know them. Therefore I worked hard to help these UNCHURCHED NON PENTECOSTALS people who had NEVER set a foot around us tongue talkers to get in the water in Jesus name. All are on different levels of growth, So, having someone tell me how to get Brother Ronnie to shave off his 50 foot Rip Van Winkle Mountain Man Hair blanket off, I decline the offer. Also I don't need anyone getting in the pulpit and laying down a line of hot spewing vomit over NEOPHYTES, in different modes of attire. Be evangelistic don't try to knock heads in my church family.

Originally Posted by Esaias

And the flock, how are they to judge these pastoral guidelines as being of God vs not of God? In such a way that their judgment is not mere personal opinion or rebellion?

I can't answer that, because I don't work that way. If I can't explain it through scripture then who is rebelling against who? I understand submit ye one to another, but that is submission to one who is in submission to God. I make my view known, but I stress that anyone who does anything they don't believe in, then it is not God. If you can't understand it through the scripture, and you do it, you will just undo it at a future date. People are built that way, people have to be thoroughly convinced of a subject before they make it their own. That even goes for the ones who were in Heaven's Gate, and flew down to Mexico to get surgically castrated.

Originally Posted by Esaias

I havent yet seen a church that took a vote on standards, it is always either the pastor preaches "XYZ" along with "As the pastor I am authorised to set XYZ in place and you are expected to submit." Or else XYZ was in place before the pastor showed up and anyone joining the church family just adapts to "the way we believe and do things here."

Hence you have typical group think. You come in, and you ask who is in charge. They all (and I mean all) point to the pulpit. We all can see that you all wear beanies with propellers. But, to add to those beanies, and their spinning props, you have Holy Ghost services that will make the stone Buddha at Fat Wong's slide into the altar with snot bubbles and tears. You have gone years with the most sweetest people and services of honey and fire. Services where no one even preaches, but people are being filled to over flowing. But one day, you are on the internet, and in a Apostolic Forum. They are hammering beanies with propellers! You think to yourself, "no one told me I was going to bust hell wide open if I didn't wear my beanie? Yet, some of these people have the most horrendous stories about these awful preachers?" But my pastor is the nicest, coolest, most giving bro I know.

You see, that is the groups where certain things stick, because people never even thought of the beanie as bondage. Oh, they got called beanie legalists, but when they pondered that, it soon washed away in a super olive oil smooth service. Holy Ghost slamming saints from the pulpit to the door. Again, no one said that the beanie had to be worn because GOD needs to see those propellers turning. Some old elder way back to the turns of history always wore one, and it caught on?

Originally Posted by Esaias

I have also encountered a wide spread belief that God ordains pastors to the specific function of making rules that God inspires him to deliver to that specific group of congregants, and failure to obey them is failure to obey God.

That is meat and potatoes of religions. But, the guru doesn't even have to utter those words. I guarantee that the good folks of First Fill in the Blank Church made it so.

Originally Posted by Esaias

The idea being essentially that "you need a pastor to be saved because that's his role, to make the decisions in your life about things like how long your sleeves are to be, skirt length, hair up or down, tv vs monitors vs internet vs whatever, no open toed shoes, whether you can move out of town or not, and to vet anything you studied on your own". Not everywhere, or to the same degree, but I have encountered that basic approach in a few places.

But how does a pastor discover he has that prerogative, and what regulates its exercise?

Mostly through the word, and as far as knowing where you need to move or not to move? The minister knows his church family. They go to him for the advise. He knows them as a brother, and since his advise ha been solicited he gives it. Now some have abused this, but I am talking about good ministry, and not Dr Cyclops.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Are we all just flying by the seat of the pastor's pants?

Furthermore,
Did not God legislate Israel's law, and forbad the adding or subtraction to and from that law, and yet also ordained the appointment of elders and judges who were expected to wisely administer that law, and make applications to new circumstances as they arose? And was this function not transferred to the apostles, and beyond them to the presbytery and overseers of the churches?

As is often the case, it seems both sides of the debate might be missing something?

I never was in a church which legislated crazy odd stuff. As a street wise individual who entered their presence I actually expected them not to watch television or the internet. To wear long dresses, long sleeves, and closed toe shoes. I just thought due to understanding history, all separatist movements were ultra modeist, especially when surrounded by people who were not.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Fat Wong's has good Moo Goo Gai Pan, so maybe the Zen guys got it wrong?

I'm going right now to get an egg roll and orange beef.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Yep...they were just following orders which everyone sneered at and the Milgram Experiment was created to sort of debunk that reasoning...what it ended up showing is that people are highly susceptible to doing horrible things when told to by a man with no authority but a clipboard and a white jacket.


Now that being said...how much more will people follow along when you have someone in a true leadership role claiming to be the mouthpiece of God also taking into account the sense of family and community, love bombing and the highly emotionally charged atmosphere of worship and preaching?


Not everybody can stand up and say no and leave man especially when your "salvation" is on the line...


I know you had a rough life growing up...but your life and the life of those raised "in the church" is apples and oranges.


How much of what you experienced did you feel was moral and right?


Its a huge difference experiencing bad and KNOWING its bad than experiencing bad disguised and masked as good.


You simply had to make a choice between the bad you were raised with and the good you discovered later...while some of us dealt with major crisis of conscience discerning and filtering through our indoctrination to the threat of hell and shunning....

Bro, I came into Pentecost and went through all of that, masked, disguised as being good. Some of you dealt with major crisis of conscience discerning and filtering through our indoctrination to the threat of hell and shunning????

I'm a PRETERIST bro, they didn't open up a bottle of champagne and poured it over my head. I was traveling around the country with a baby and a wife. While my good brother called a pastor I was preaching a revival for. Major crisis of conscience discerning and filtering through our indoctrination to the threat of hell and shunning? Yeah, bro, in the movement that I love.

Bro, this isn't my first rodeo, and I am no novice.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I dont recall the brass serpent being placed in the ark?

You are correct. I cannot find any reference to the brazen serpent being placed in the ark of the covenant. Thanks for correcting me on that. I have no idea where I got that from.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

You are correct. I cannot find any reference to the brazen serpent being placed in the ark of the covenant. Thanks for correcting me on that. I have no idea where I got that from.

Fat Wong's?

lol

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Fat Wong's?

lol

I think it was Fat Wrong’s.

Or possibly his cousin Flat Wrongs.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Fat Wong's?

lol

Brazen serpent in sweet and sour sauce.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Brazen serpent in sweet and sour sauce.

I hear they have crow on the menu. If you have to eat crow, eat it while it’s still warm.

Just take my word for it. I’m connoisseur of crow eating.

Actually, I KNOW I remember reading that in the Bible.



It was right in there with the scripture about the high priest wearing a rope around his ankle and just below the scriptural prohibition for wearing beards.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I hear they have crow on the menu. If you have to eat crow, eat it while it’s still warm.

Just take my word for it. I’m connoisseur of crow eating.

Actually, I KNOW I remember reading that in the Bible.



It was right in there with the scripture about the high priest wearing a rope around his ankle and just below the scriptural prohibition for wearing beards.

Where do you think the story comes from concerning the tethered dead high priest?

Let me give you a clue, they wear beards, peyos, black hats, and long black coats.

You would be pretty amazed how much influenced they had over churches through the years.

.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Where do you think the story comes from concerning the tethered dead high priest?

Let me give you a clue, they wear beards, peyos, black hats, and long black coats.

You would be pretty amazed how much influenced they had over churches through the years.

.

I always believed it. I never questioned it. The bell and the pomegranate and the rope tied around the ankle just in case he had sin, and was struck dead, the other (not so high) priests could retrieve his sinful carcass.

Well, the bell and the pomegranate are in the Bible, but the rope around the ankle, not there.

I didn’t know it came from the black hat and coat crowd though. It makes sense that it does thou.

I’m clueless on peyos. What is that/are they?