What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I don't recall ever in my entire life saying that. I have never heard anyone say the spirit dies at death. Here is what I have always believed and taught: at death the flesh goes back to the dust and the spirit goes back to God who gave it (Eccl 12:7).

That's why I asked for your clarification. So, you believe the spirit leaves the body and goes to God.

Now this is weird. I honestly have no idea why you say that. I have always understood the original intent for Man was to live and rule the earth as the sons of God. It is one of the reasons I never bought into 'Fly Awayism' or the immortal soul theory. I can only say I have no idea where you got such an idea, honestly. Every person I've ever known who believes the truth of the resurrection understands this most basic fundamental point.

I've just never heard anyone say anything about why we see our bodies restored to immortal physical life, and have never heard you address this. You said the PERSON died and is resurrected, not the body That made me think you meant spirit soul and body dies and is resurrected, because a person is a spirit, soul and body.

So, are you saying that after the resurrection, we do not stay in heaven but come to earth and continue as Ada was meant to continue on the earth, as I do? You said something about the PERSON dies, not just the body. So, do you mean the SOUL dies at death to not exist, let alone depart the body and go to heaven?

you said...

If the body is the only thing that dies, then the body - not the whole person - is the only thing that resurrects.

And I consider a person to be spirit, soul and body.

When you said this...

Resurrection involves the PERSON. And a living person is a union of spirit and flesh, producing a living soul. When spirit and flesh separate, the person dies. When spirit is REunited with flesh, the person lives again, or is "resurrected".

...it made me think you meant the separation is some form of dying and you did not say the spirit goes back to God when you wrote that. I did not know what you thought happened to the spirit, so it seemed you meant the person, spirit, soul and body died. requiring spirit, soul and body to rise again. You just did not say enough. Now that you have said the spirit leaves and goes to God, I understand that you did not mean the spirit dies and needs resurrection. That was a missing factor in your explanation.

You do realise my point was that IF 1 Cor 15 was ONLY about the body coming back to life (albeit immortal) THEN those who have died have PERISHED IF the dead are not raised.

It's not easy to follow your thought here.

This means that IF what Paul wrote was true (it is) THEN the immortal soul theory is at once proven utterly false and impossible. Why? Because those who "live on after death" ARE STILL ALIVE whether the bodies come out of the grave or not, they have not and indeed CANNOT "perish".

That clarifies your thought better than what I read before.

BUT, since if the dead do not rise then all departed are perished, it follows that 1 Cor 15 IS NOT about a bodily resurrection for living disembodied dead-but-still-alive people. Rather, it is about the resurrection of the PERSON. The PERSON has forever perished if there is no resurrection. Why? Because a living person is a uniting of flesh and spirit (making a living soul, a living creature, a living PERSON). As long as spirit and flesh are separated, the person is DEAD. The Bible calls it "sleep" because it is a temporary condition until resurrection. Just as a man goes to sleep, and wakes up in the morning, humans die, but will rise up on That Morning.

I agree that is why it is called sleep. But I restrict that to the body.

So, I am trying to work through what you are saying.

You are saying that there is no person if the spirit separates from the body. So, the soul does not die, but just ceases to exist? Please elaborate on what happens to the soul when the spirit leaves the body, because I am not clear about your view on that.

This leads us to ask that if the soul ceases to exist, that is, the experience of dying is the soul ceasing to exist, then how are the personality and individual traits maintained when the resurrection occurs and the spirit reunites to flesh to make soul all over again, if that is what happens with soul in your view?

Paul said "comfort one another with these words", words that say NOTHING about the joys of the after death fiesta in heaven. But words about RESURRECTION. Immortal soulists however routinely comfort one another with tales of how sweet it is for the dead to be in heaven, what they are doing, etc. This tells me clearly the immortal soul theory is NOT what Jesus, His apostles, and the prophets believed.

I still see the soul in heaven, again because of what Paul said about departing from the body and being present with the Lord. But please elaborate more on your thoughts of the soul at death.

How can the soul SLEEP, if the spirit leaves the body to see the soul non-existent, if you are saying it is non-existent? I need more clarity from you on that.