Christmas Trees on Pentecostal platforms

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

There are so many "idolatrous" practices within every.single.church.

The days of the week, the months of the year, all our holidays... everything our country is founded upon, could somehow be traced back to an idolatrous practice. It is almost impossible to root it out. Talk about the "high places". Yes, we've got them, everywhere.

I don't think you will find a single church anywhere that doesn't have some form or function in their midst that could be traced back to some idolatrous practice.

You must not get out much.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Sounds nice. I’m always up for a feast.

But I do hope y’all didn’t have such a nice family dinner NORTH of the equator, because, from what I been hearing that would constitute idolatry. I don’t mean to rain on your parade, but it may be safer to just fast the month of December, so you wouldn’t inadvertently be guilty of celebrating some god you’ve never heard of and maybe not be capable of even pronouncing his name. Y’all be careful now.

Sister Alvear accepts tithes. So, since we have recently found out you have no problem with the Catholic mass. She can rest peacefully knowing that your whole hullabaloo concerning no tithing is self serving as well.

[JamesGlen]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

James,

If there are legitimate problems in a church, and nothing is being done about them, there are usually only two possible reasons:

1.) Ignorance
2.) Hypocrisy

The people don't know there are problems and so, never deduce that ought should be done.

Or, the people know things are not right, and are keeping things in the wrong on purpose.

You have to decide which is the case in your case, and then, what you might do about either/or.

If this was your church assembly you were talking about, it clearly bothers you enough to reach out to a bunch of strangers on a forum to gather opinions. But has it bothered you enough to speak to your church about it?

If the placing of a Christmas tree in the building the church uses is a sin in your eyes, or if demanding men be clean shaven to minister from the platform is a sin in your eyes, if you can thicken your skin for a moment and relax regarding Evangelist Benincasa for a moment, you'd realize that he is right.

You're either going to have to say nothing and live with that, if you can.

Or, you're going to have to step up, man up, and go be an adult and have an adult conversation with the leadership and get the skinny on what's going on, and what if anything, they are willing to do to make changes.

Or, you can find yourself a new assembly.

Listen, not a single one of those three choices is easy. They are all fraught with consequences, some potentially worse for you than others. Which one is right? Well, that's up to you and the Lord. But unless and until you make a choice on one of them, you aren't going to get the answers you really want, and you certainly won't receive the peace you really need.

With all due respect, you can keep your sarcasm, brother, Ben. seems to be rubbing off on you, but thank you for the rest.

To me it’s not about simply about having a sit down w the local powers in charge. it’s about trying to find out on a bigger OP scale than just a local body, why it is that some independent apostolics are hard core against Jesus trees, and other like commonly in the upc, believe they are acceptable and even set up and adorn their Jesus trees in their most holy place. And yes, I am using a public apostolic Pentecostal forum to try to understand why that is.

While you may presume that it’s eating with a local assembly, and that I need man up and have a sit down with the powers that be, I am simply asking on a oneness apostolic forum, why many apostolics have drawn a hard line against Jesus Christ mass, while many others churches fasten Jesus trees in their holiest of holies area?

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

With all due respect, you can keep your sarcasm, brother, Ben. seems to be rubbing off on you, but thank you for the rest.

To me it’s not about simply about having a sit down w the local powers in charge. it’s about trying to find out on a bigger OP scale than just a local body, why it is that some independent apostolics are hard core against Jesus trees, and other like commonly in the upc, believe they are acceptable and even set up and adorn their Jesus trees in their most holy place. And yes, I am using a public apostolic Pentecostal forum to try to understand why that is.

While you may presume that it’s eating with a local assembly, and that I need man up and have a sit down with the powers that be, I am simply asking on a oneness apostolic forum, why many apostolics have drawn a hard line against Jesus Christ mass, while many others churches fasten Jesus trees in their holiest of holies area?

Bro. James,
I’m not trying to add fuel to the fire between Bro. Benincasa and yourself. You guys are doing a good job at that without my help. Yet, I would like to add something to the discussion.

Your correct in stating that just a sit down with the “powers” that be, probably will not correct the problem that your seeing. One option that someone gave was to leave that assembly and go somewhere else, yet going to another location will not in my opinion be the best solution because something will arise with that assembly as well.

Christmas trees, Satan Clause, Gifts, Watch Night Services (j/k), Easter bunnies, Harvest Parties (Halloween), that is not your problem! The problem isn’t seeing a Christmas tree on the platform, the real problem is the Heart! Our heart is more wicked than Satan himself, if you believe that the Christmas tree is idolatry then that means its in their heart. When they take the Christmas tree down, doesn’t mean the idolatry leaves their heart. They’re just producing on the outside what’s on the inside. Yet, because we go by what we see, we only notice these things during certain times of the year. What about the rest of the year?

Also, the church building is NOT the Holy Place. The Holy Place is you, your the temple of God not made by mans hands. The church building is just a meeting place, not to be glorified your the temple in which Jesus dwells. They can have a picture of Mary hanging on the walls and all it shows is what’s in THEIR temple.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Sister Alvear accepts tithes. So, since we have recently found out you have no problem with the Catholic mass. She can rest peacefully knowing that your whole hullabaloo concerning no tithing is self serving as well.

The hullabaloo being self serving (or not) really has nothing to do with it. It is a verifiable truth. It is scriptural. You have admitted yourself that the doctrine of tithing, that so many pastors and preachers teach and preach, did not come from the Bible.

Yet, you want to pretend that I am teaching it just because it benefits me?

How do you spell hippocr, er uh, how do you spell Pharisee?

Is it hypocrite?

😂 😂

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

With all due respect, you can keep your sarcasm, brother, Ben. seems to be rubbing off on you, but thank you for the rest.

This is what I love. Starting off with all due respect, and then giving none.

Brother Ben isn't rubbing off on Brother Votivesoul, because Brother Votivesoul can easily, and obviously see the truth of the matter.

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

To me it’s not about simply about having a sit down w the local powers in charge.

Well, of course not. Because you won't. You would rather mock these brethren by hashing it all out with complete strangers. Individuals who have utterly no skin in the game. Who have nothing invested in you or your church family, and therefore cannot possibly have your best interest in mind. All they would do is argue amongst themselves, on how the scenario you have painted is nothing more than a story of religious hypocrites, and sonny Jim, that is exactly the answer you set us up to provide you.

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

it’s about trying to find out on a bigger OP scale than just a local body,

And pray tell? What would the above be interpreted to mean? Can O Worms!
A veritable smorgasbord of contradictions, derring-do, wresting of scripture, and total ecclesiastical baffornary. Which people only cherry pick to get the answer they were originally looking for even before they asked their question.

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

why it is that some independent apostolics

Yes, but of course, the GIB. We all know they are the Quasimodo of the movement. Because after all they are independent for a reason, and that reason is because they are so extreme. So extreme in fact that they needed to leave the good fellowship of those who wrote it all down in a manual.

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

why it is that some independent apostolics are hard core against Jesus trees, and other like commonly in the upc, believe they are acceptable and even set up and adorn their Jesus trees in their most holy place. And yes, I am using a public apostolic Pentecostal forum to try to understand why that is.

Worry yourself no longer my good man. Be at ease in Zion. Take heart in knowing that people make their own decisions to do as they very well please. The eldership agrees, and the people in the pews agree. Everyone is shout down hair happy, and all are in the joy of the Lord. Until (as my brother Votive mentioned) they get an epiphany to change it up a bit, all will remain as it had from their beginning.

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

While you may presume that it’s eating with a local assembly, and that I need man up and have a sit down with the powers that be, I am simply asking on a oneness apostolic forum, why many apostolics have drawn a hard line against Jesus Christ mass, while many others churches fasten Jesus trees in their holiest of holies area?

Yet, you got some reasonable answers, but what it really looks like you are trying to hear, is the words "They are hypocrites!"

Happy New Year James


May the FORCE be with you.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

The hullabaloo being self serving (or not) really has nothing to do with it. It is a verifiable truth. It is scriptural. You have admitted yourself that the doctrine of tithing, that so many pastors and preachers teach and preach, did not come from the Bible.

Yet, you want to pretend that I am teaching it just because it benefits me?

How do you spell hippocr, er uh, how do you spell Pharisee?

Is it hypocrite?

😂 😂

I wouldn't call you a hypocrite it is Greek for actor who wears a mask. They are usually consistent with what they outwardly believe. Yet, inwardly they
despise the whole thing from Dan to the Beersheba. A pharisee on the other hand could be a hypocrite but not all pharisees were hypocrites. There were ones who had accepted Jesus, like the Apostle Paul. So, you are neither hypocrite or pharisee.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I wouldn't call you a hypocrite it is Greek for actor who wears a mask. They are usually consistent with what they outwardly believe. Yet, inwardly they
despise the whole thing from Dan to the Beersheba. A pharisee on the other hand could be a hypocrite but not all pharisees were hypocrites. There were ones who had accepted Jesus, like the Apostle Paul. So, you are neither hypocrite or pharisee.

You have never spoken words that were more true.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

With all due respect, you can keep your sarcasm, brother, Ben. seems to be rubbing off on you, but thank you for the rest.

The portion of my post that you quoted and highlighted was anything but sarcastic. I meant it seriously. Apparently you've taken that as a challenge to your man-hood.

Why so easily triggered, brother? Age doesn't automatically equal maturity.

So, what did I say? In this order I said:

1.) Step-up

That is, take upon yourself the burden and responsibility of fixing in the world what you see wrong. Start with frank and honest discussion with those people responsible for causing what you believe to be wrong.

2.) Man-up

That is, summon your courage and go do what is otherwise easier to avoid: confront and challenge the status quo. This issue clearly bothers you. So what are you going to do about it? Not here at AFF, where nothing but text goes forth, but in the real world, in your own hometown, in your own backyard, as it were?

3.) Be an adult/Have an adult conversation

That is, proceed maturely, patiently, with restraint and a willingness to listen and hear, but also to share and properly articulate the issues as you see them, so you can negotiate a peace and hopefully makes things better and not worse, for yourself, for your family, for your church, and for your world.

So, I again reiterate. You've gotten to toughen up that skin. If a couple of nobodies on a surviving on life-support internet forum can upset your apple cart so easily, when nothing actually offensive has been said, then don't you think Christmas trees on church building platforms are of lesser significance?

To me it’s not about simply about having a sit down w the local powers in charge. it’s about trying to find out on a bigger OP scale than just a local body...

But the scale with stuff like this is always the local body. Because the answer to your question is different right down to the individual local body. And Evangelist Benincasa hit the nail square. It's the way it is in every local body because that's the way the people want it, or agree to permit it. So, while it's not wrong to gather lots of different opinions and views, the best way to acquire an answer is to go speak with the churches that put up Christmas trees on their platforms and ask them why they do it.

...why it is that some independent apostolics are hard core against Jesus trees, and other like commonly in the upc, believe they are acceptable and even set up and adorn their Jesus trees in their most holy place. And yes, I am using a public apostolic Pentecostal forum to try to understand why that is. While you may presume that it’s eating with a local assembly, and that I need man up and have a sit down with the powers that be, I am simply asking on a oneness apostolic forum, why many apostolics have drawn a hard line against Jesus Christ mass, while many others churches fasten Jesus trees in their holiest of holies area?

So then, let's have all the cards on the table.

Was this just some hypothetical scenario that you wondered about one day? Or was the question triggered by an actual church, perhaps your local assembly, or one you visited?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The portion of my post that you quoted and highlighted was anything but sarcastic. I meant it seriously. Apparently you've taken that as a challenge to your man-hood.

Why so easily triggered, brother? Age doesn't automatically equal maturity.

So, what did I say? In this order I said:

1.) Step-up

That is, take upon yourself the burden and responsibility of fixing in the world what you see wrong. Start with frank and honest discussion with those people responsible for causing what you believe to be wrong.

2.) Man-up

That is, summon your courage and go do what is otherwise easier to avoid: confront and challenge the status quo. This issue clearly bothers you. So what are you going to do about it? Not here at AFF, where nothing but text goes forth, but in the real world, in your own hometown, in your own backyard, as it were?

3.) Be an adult/Have an adult conversation

That is, proceed maturely, patiently, with restraint and a willingness to listen and hear, but also to share and properly articulate the issues as you see them, so you can negotiate a peace and hopefully makes things better and not worse, for yourself, for your family, for your church, and for your world.

So, I again reiterate. You've gotten to toughen up that skin. If a couple of nobodies on a surviving on life-support internet forum can upset your apple cart so easily, when nothing actually offensive has been said, then don't you think Christmas trees on church building platforms are of lesser significance?



But the scale with stuff like this is always the local body. Because the answer to your question is different right down to the individual local body. And Evangelist Benincasa hit the nail square. It's the way it is in every local body because that's the way the people want it, or agree to permit it. So, while it's not wrong to gather lots of different opinions and views, the best way to acquire an answer is to go speak with the churches that put up Christmas trees on their platforms and ask them why they do it.



So then, let's have all the cards on the table.

Was this just some hypothetical scenario that you wondered about one day? Or was the question triggered by an actual church, perhaps your local assembly, or one you visited?

Excellent post