A covid forum?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by diakonos

Preach!

I mean... Idk...

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I read John 15:10 as OUR love is conditional. If we love Him, we will keep His Commandments.

After all, the Word says - “WHO shall separate us from the love of Christ?...Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

2 Timothy speaks further - “If WE believe not, yet HE abide faithful: HE cannot deny himself.”


It is nothing lacking in Him, it is what is lacking in us.

But Jesus said "if you keep my commandments ye shall abide in MY LOVE."

So if one does NOT keep his commandments they will NOT abide in his love.

The verse in Romans 8 says nothing about sin not separating us from the love of God.

How about the rest of what Paul wrote to Tim?

2 Tim. 2:12

If we suffer we shall also with him: if we deny him he also will deny us.

You seem to believe the same thing as osas. How is a doctrine like this different than it?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

But Jesus said "if you keep my commandments ye shall abide in MY LOVE."

So if one does NOT keep his commandments they will NOT abide in his love.

Doesn’t He say, “If you love ME, keep my commandments.”?

The verse in Romans 8 says nothing about sin not separating us from the love of God.

How about the rest of what Paul wrote to Tim?

2 Tim. 2:12

If we suffer we shall also with him: if we deny him he also will deny us.

You seem to believe the same thing as osas. How is a doctrine like this different than it?

2 Timothy doesn’t mean He doesn’t love us. It is conditional upon our part alone.

For instance, 1 John 2:24 “ So you must remain faithful to what you have been taught from the beginning. If you do, you will remain in fellowship with the Son and with the Father.”

I see Him give and give as long as we take and hold fast our profession.

It is always a condition placed on us. He never wavers. No OSAS here.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I read John 15:10 as OUR love is conditional. If we love Him, we will keep His Commandments.

After all, the Word says - “WHO shall separate us from the love of Christ?...Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

2 Timothy speaks further - “If WE believe not, yet HE abide faithful: HE cannot deny himself.”


It is nothing lacking in Him, it is what is lacking in us.

I agree.

MTD, this is what Jesus meant in the verse you referenced.

[Michael The Disciple]

Doesn’t He say, “If you love ME, keep my commandments.”?

Yes. But we know he ALSO said:

"If you keep my commandments ye shall abide in MY LOVE."

For instance, 1 John 2:24 “ So you must remain faithful to what you have been taught from the beginning. If you do, you will remain in fellowship with the Son and with the Father.”

This seems to be saying he will not have fellowship with you if you dont remain faithful.

Look at this saying.

I am thankful that His love, just like His grace and mercy isn't dependent on anything that I do or not do.

This is what I question.

Did James say Gods grace was dependent on anything we do? Or does what we do hinder it? Does he give grace to the proud? Despite the fact they are proud?

James 4:6

6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Is there anything we can do to get grace from God? Or does he give it unconditionally?

What did Peter say?

1 Peter 5:5

5Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Looks like the same thing James said doesnt it?

IF.....we will humble ourselves he will give grace? If we do not will he still give grace? OR WILL HE RESIST US?

My point is that God does not just give love and grace unconditionally.

Thats not to say he is not longsuffering and kind willing to show mercy. But the Church world is full of the teaching that God gives his love and grace without condition.

A doctrine that is taught as foundational in the Evangelical/Protestant world. It seems to be getting firmly entrenched among the Apostolics as well.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes. But we know he ALSO said:

"If you keep my commandments ye shall abide in MY LOVE."



This seems to be saying he will not have fellowship with you if you dont remain faithful.

Look at this saying.



This is what I question.

Did James say Gods grace was dependent on anything we do? Or does what we do hinder it? Does he give grace to the proud? Despite the fact they are proud?

James 4:6

6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Is there anything we can do to get grace from God? Or does he give it unconditionally?

What did Peter say?

1 Peter 5:5

5Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Looks like the same thing James said doesnt it?

IF.....we will humble ourselves he will give grace? If we do not will he still give grace? OR WILL HE RESIST US?

My point is that God does not just give love and grace unconditionally.

Thats not to say he is not longsuffering and kind willing to show mercy. But the Church world is full of the teaching that God gives his love and grace without condition.

A doctrine that is taught as foundational in the Evangelical/Protestant world. It seems to be getting firmly entrenched among the Apostolics as well.

So, I don’t view these passage aspects as something He dangles in front of us. I view them as something He offers, unconditionally on His part, but the conditional being always on our part.

IOW, God IS Love. Regardless whether we accept His grace, mercy, love or Gospel, it never changes who He is or what He has to offer.

I think of the Israelites who, the moment they repented, He was there. Of course, our negative actions will cause us to reap what we have sowed, but His love and faithfulness will see us through even that.

Again, it appears any conditionality depends on what we really want. Our being proud is a condition on our part. If we can’t deal with that type of human being, can God if they remain willing proud?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes. But we know he ALSO said:

"If you keep my commandments ye shall abide in MY LOVE."

But that's only rephrasing what Pressing On just said!

Abiding in someone's LOVE is BEING in love with them.

This is another example of the KJV English throwing someone off. Abiding in his love MEANS being in love with someone.

[Michael The Disciple]

So, I don’t view these passage aspects as something He dangles in front of us. I view them as something He offers, unconditionally on His part, but the conditional being always on our part.

IOW, God IS Love. Regardless whether we accept His grace, mercy, love or Gospel, it never changes who He is or what He has to offer.

I think of the Israelites who, the moment they repented, He was there. Of course, our negative actions will cause us to reap what we have sowed, but His love and faithfulness will see us through even that.

Well he is Love. He is also a consuming fire. He doesnt change who he is but he changes what he has to offer depending on what WE DO.

Let us go back to the saying in question.

I am thankful that His love, just like His grace and mercy isn't dependent on anything that I do or not do.

Compare that statement to this scriptural statement.

Heb. 10:26-31

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth sins, no more sacrifice for sin 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

How does this scriptural statement compare to this saying?

I am thankful that His love, just like His grace and mercy isn't dependent on anything that I do or not do.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But that's only rephrasing what Pressing On just said!

Abiding in someone's LOVE is BEING in love with them.

This is another example of the KJV English throwing someone off. Abiding in his love MEANS being in love with someone.

We interrupt this program for an alert from the Emergency Doom and Gloom Broadcast System. Please stand by.

Abiding in His love means dwelling in His love. The love is owned by Him, it is HIS love, not our love. Our love originates from us and is directed toward Him. His love originates from Him and is directed toward us. If we keep His commandments, we will abide (dwell, remain) in His love. If we do NOT keep His commandments we will NOT abide (dwell, remain) in His love.

Just like a man tells his child "if you follow my rules you will abide in my house", meaning if the child does NOT follow the father's rules the child will not be living in the father's house.

There is nothing wrong with the correct and well-nigh perfect grammar of the KJV. There IS something wrong with incorrect theology and exegesis. Abiding in God's love does not mean grammatically the same as "being in love with God". It means exactly what it says: remaining in the love of God. Not our love for Him, but HIS love. Breaking His commandments removes a person from His love.

And "love" here is NOT AT ALL anything remotely close to "being in love". Being in love is a completely modern term referring to a combination of affection and sexual attraction. God's love is not some sappy boy-meets-girl style emotion. God's love is defined right here:

John 3:16 KJV
For God so loved the world,emoat he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God SO loved.... That does not say "loved the world so much that". It is says God SO loved the world that... The word "so" means "in this manner". It does NOT indicate a degree or amount, but a manner or mechanism. How did God love? He loved by giving the Son. God's love is not a mere emotion or feeling. It is an ACTION.

Our love toward Him is likewise:

John 14:21 KJV
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23-24 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. [24] He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

God's love toward us is not manifested by feelings of "being in love". It is manifested by the blessings of grace and the gospel found in Christ. Our love towards God is not manifested in feelings of "being in love". It is manifested by our obedience to His instructions. Feelings are ultimately irrelevent to the subject.

Christianity has largely been polluted into an effeminate feelings based sappy sloppy-agape pietism focused on personal emotional catharsis. It is the fruit of Jezebel, the way of Balaam, it is the hallmark of Canaanite Baal worship. It is why Christianity has had practically zero impact on the world at large for about the last 50 years or so. It has become something for children, and silly women laden with sins led away by various lusts, and the fluffy-socks-wearing weak little manlets who are for all practical purposes spiritual catamites, who are all about "feeling love for God" while they refuse to actually love God Biblically. They worship their form of worship instead of worshipping God. They are "in love" with the idea of being "in love" but don't actually love the one they pretend to be "in love" with.

Their religion is bhakti yoga, emotional cathartic devotion to an object of affection, without much regard to what God Himself actually says on the subject (or any subject, actually). And all bhakti yoga is ultimately devotion to the "divine" Self masquerading as an external object or "god" or Teacher. Which means this type of Baal religion is idolatry of the self masquerading as devotion to "Jesus". A "Jesus" in one's own image and likeness. Your own... personal... Jesus... Someone who's there... Someone who cares...

Society has been turned into a mob of hysterical women regardless of their biological gender lookin for love in all the wrong places. And that's why tv preachers make phat cash on gullible hurting people. And that's why all of society, from the White House to the pepsi ads to the pulpits to the schools to the HR department to Hellyweird ALL teach everyone - men, women, boys, girls, and "others" - to be needy hurting emotional affection- and attention- starved desperate saps. Easily controlled, easily manipulated, easily merchandised (2 Peter 2:1-3).

But the one who LOVES GOD in the good old Bible way is one who isn't led or ruled by feelings, but by Thus Saith The LORD as it is written.

This concludes the Emergency Doom and Gloom System alert. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

[n david]

He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love;