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  #31  
Old 08-13-2020, 06:19 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The Early Church Was Absolutely NOT Trinitaria

Light,
Have you always been Unitarian?
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  #32  
Old 08-14-2020, 05:51 PM
LetUsReason LetUsReason is offline
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Re: The Early Church Was Absolutely NOT Trinitaria

Trinitarian (and especially Catholic) theologians and historians readily admit that the Bible does not explicitly teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Any supposed expression of the Trinity found in the Biblical text is drawn out by inference only. In other words, it is a conclusion brought about by conjecture and presupposition. Here are a few quick examples.

“The New Catholic Encyclopedia” states...

“There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical
theologians...that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New
Testament without serious qualifications...New Testament exegesis is
now accepted as having shown that not only the verbal idiom but even
the patterns of thought characteristic of the patristic (church
fathers) and concilar (church councils) development would have been
quite foreign to the mind and culture of the New Testament writers.”
-“The New Catholic Encyclopedia,” Art. “Trinity, Holy (In the Bible),” pp. 295-305.

Trinitarian Protestant theologian Emil Brunner stated...

“The doctrine of the Trinity itself, however, is not a Biblical doctrine and this indeed not by accident but of necessity. It is the product of theological reflection upon the problem...The ecclesiastical doctrine of the Trinity is not only the product of genuine Biblical thought, it is also the product of philosophical speculation, which is remote from the thought of the Bible.”
-Emil Brunner, “The Christian Doctrine of God,” Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1949, pp. 236- 239.

Furthermore, a simply exploration of the early history of Christianity reveals that the development of Trinitarianism was a process taking place over at least several centuries, numerous church councils, Roman emperors' interventions, and much violence and bloodshed. This is just plain history, and I don't think anyone who is educated honestly debates this. It's not even hidden.
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  #33  
Old 08-14-2020, 05:59 PM
LetUsReason LetUsReason is offline
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Re: The Early Church Was Absolutely NOT Trinitaria

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Moses wrote of a man that would speak the words of God.
Jesus said he was the man that Moses spoke of.
John 1:44 Acts 3/22 1Cor 15/24-28.
For every passage that declares Jesus was a genuine man, one could point out two or more that clearly state or clearly imply Him as God. Jesus was a man but He was also God manifest in flesh AS a man. This is fundamental to Christianity. Without being fully God and fully man simultaneously, the Atonement could not have been accomplished. The Messiah HAD to have been both God and man. If He was not a genuine man, He could not act as a sacrifice to atone for the sins of mankind. If He was not God in flesh, He could not have been the sinless, spotless sacrifice. Jesus, of theological necessity, in fact HAD to be both fully man and fully God.
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  #34  
Old 08-14-2020, 06:02 PM
Hoffman Hoffman is offline
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Re: The Early Church Was Absolutely NOT Trinitaria

Quote:
Originally Posted by LetUsReason View Post
For every passage that declares Jesus was a genuine man, one could point out two or more that clearly state or clearly imply Him as God. Jesus was a man but He was also God manifest in flesh AS a man. This is fundamental to Christianity. Without being fully God and fully man simultaneously, the Atonement could not have been accomplished. The Messiah HAD to have been both God and man. If He was not a genuine man, He could not act as a sacrifice to atone for the sins of mankind. If He was not God in flesh, He could not have been the sinless, spotless sacrifice. Jesus, of theological necessity, in fact HAD to be both fully man and fully God.
Very well written.
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  #35  
Old 08-16-2020, 12:02 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: The Early Church Was Absolutely NOT Trinitaria

Quote:
Originally Posted by LetUsReason View Post
If He was not God in flesh, He could not have been the sinless, spotless sacrifice.
Can you demonstrate this claim from Scripture?

Thanks!
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Last edited by Esaias; 08-16-2020 at 12:24 PM.
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  #36  
Old 08-16-2020, 12:37 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: The Early Church Was Absolutely NOT Trinitaria

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Moses wrote of a man that would speak the words of God.
Jesus said he was the man that Moses spoke of.
John 1:44 Acts 3/22 1Cor 15/24-28.
And Paul wrote of "our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ".
The apostle Thomas said Jesus was his "Lord and God".

Next?
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  #37  
Old 08-17-2020, 07:53 PM
LetUsReason LetUsReason is offline
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Re: The Early Church Was Absolutely NOT Trinitaria

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Can you demonstrate this claim from Scripture?

Thanks!
I have to confess, I'm a bit confused why you would ask me to cite Scripture regarding one of the foundational basics of Christianity and the Atonement, but here goes...

According to God’s plan, the shedding of blood was necessary for the remission of human sins (Hebrews 9:22). The blood of animals could not take away human sin because animals are inferior to humans (Hebrews 10:4). No other human could purchase redemption for someone else, because all had sinned and so deserved the penalty of death for themselves (Romans 3:24, 6:23).

Only God was sinless, but He did not have flesh and blood. Therefore, God prepared a human body for Himself (Hebrews 10:5), that He might live a sinless life in flesh and shed innocent blood to save humanity. He became flesh and blood so that He could through death defeat the devil and deliver humanity (Hebrews 2:14-15).

In this way, Christ is our Propitiation – the means by which we obtain forgiveness, the satisfaction of God’s justice, the appeasement of God’s holy wrath (Romans 3:25). The sacrifice of Christ is the means by which God pardons our sin without compromising His righteousness. We are saved today through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ – through the offering of the Son of God (Hebrews 10:10-20, John 3:16). Thus, the Son is the sacrifice and propitiation for our sins.

When the Son of God became a sacrifice, He also became a substitute for us. He died in our place, bore our sins, and paid the penalty of death for our sins (Isaiah 53:5-6, 1 Peter 2:24). He was more than a martyr; He actually took our place. He tasted death for every person (Hebrews 2:9). Of course, the only way Jesus could be our substitute and die in our place was by coming in flesh as a descendant of Adam.

Consider the following passages as well...

“Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour (to give aid to) them that are tempted.”
Hebrews 2:17-18

“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood (speaking of Jesus), to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.”
Romans 3:25-26

“To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”
-2 Peter 1:1

“Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” –John 14:6-7

“For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”
Hebrews 4:15-16

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
John 3:16

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
John 1:1-14

"For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec."
-Hebrews 5:1-10
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  #38  
Old 08-17-2020, 10:02 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The Early Church Was Absolutely NOT Trinitaria

Angels are sinless, Adam was sinless. There must be more than one reason for Jesus to be God revealed in flesh, don’t you think?
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  #39  
Old 08-18-2020, 02:17 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: The Early Church Was Absolutely NOT Trinitaria

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
And Paul wrote of "our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ".
Titus 2:13 (AV)
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing
of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Your version is the Granville Sharp rule for fools.
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  #40  
Old 08-18-2020, 07:13 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The Early Church Was Absolutely NOT Trinitaria

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Titus 2:13 (AV)
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing
of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Your version is the Granville Sharp rule for fools.
How many are going to appear? One! Jesus Christ! Paul was referring to One!
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