Interesting Trinitarian Statement - trithestic?

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

You know I have read the creed and talk with many people that have studied on it. There is a common denominator in these discussions. Most of them believe that when it is using the term "three persons" that it is accually meant to be that the word "persons" should have been manifestaions. That it was not intended to be the word "persons" as we understand it today. Like you, MOW and I are three different people. It was intended to mean three offices or manifestations.

Also with the Co's, it was intended to be that the offices of God are Coequal, Coeternal, and Coexistent from the mindset that if Jesus is Father, Son and Spirit that He did not stop being the Father when He came as Jesus and was never the Spirit until Jesus died. It accually means that God is all the Co's because He is all of the offices, manifestations, persons, forms, etc. all at one time. It is not intended that there is three individual bodies 1 God, 2 Jesus, 3 Spirit. It is accually saying that He can exist in all forms at all times.

But that's just it, none of the earliest Creeds use the term "persons" in the English translations or the Greek or Latin equivalents of the English word. Here's the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381 A.D. as used in Eastern Orthodox churches today. This is the Creed to which I adhere:

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, True God of True God, Begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made:

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;

And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;

And ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;

And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead,

Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the Prophets;

And we believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,

And the life of the age to come. Amen."

Perhaps the best English word to use, in order to be consistent with what the Nicene and Ante-Nicene fathers believed is the word "persona," which is the same as the Latin word that is a translation of the Greek word prosopon.

[sola gratia]

Originally Posted by Chan

But that's just it, none of the earliest Creeds use the term "persons" in the English translations or the Greek or Latin equivalents of the English word. Here's the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381 A.D. as used in Eastern Orthodox churches today. This is the Creed to which I adhere:

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, True God of True God, Begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made:

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;

And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;

And ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;

And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead,

Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the Prophets;

And we believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,

And the life of the age to come. Amen."

Perhaps the best English word to use, in order to be consistent with what the Nicene and Ante-Nicene fathers believed is the word "persona," which is the same as the Latin word that is a translation of the Greek word prosopon.

I would agree - persons is a qualified term. A schooled Trinitarian will tell you that. It is a word that denotes distinction between Father, Son and Holy Ghost ....

[H2H]

Originally Posted by sola gratia

I would agree - persons is a qualified term. A schooled Trinitarian will tell you that. It is a word that denotes distinction between Father, Son and Holy Ghost ....

For their part it is unfortunate that these "schooled Trinitarians" do little to relay this thought to the laypersons in the pew.

[sola gratia]

Originally Posted by H2H

For their part it is unfortunate that these "schooled Trinitarians" do little to relay this thought to the laypersons in the pew.

not true... besides - why should they? It does not matter.... having full understanding of the Godhead is not a salvation issue.... reaching the lost seems to be their passion - hence the they make up 99.9% of christianity

[H2H]

Originally Posted by sola gratia

not true... besides - why should they? It does not matter.... having full understanding of the Godhead is not a salvation issue.... reaching the lost seems to be their passion - hence the they make up 99.9% of christianity

Ok so you say they are educating the layperson? Can I get some good Trinitarian reference material on the rejection of the common usage of persons?

99.9% of Christianity is focused on reaching the lost? You do yourself a disservice.

It never crossed my mind that one should fully understand the godhead to be saved.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Chan

But that's just it, none of the earliest Creeds use the term "persons" in the English translations or the Greek or Latin equivalents of the English word. Here's the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381 A.D. as used in Eastern Orthodox churches today. This is the Creed to which I adhere:

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, True God of True God, Begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made:

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;

And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;

And ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;

And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead,

Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the Prophets;

And we believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,

And the life of the age to come. Amen."

Perhaps the best English word to use, in order to be consistent with what the Nicene and Ante-Nicene fathers believed is the word "persona," which is the same as the Latin word that is a translation of the Greek word prosopon.

I agree persona is the best word to use. I think there are alot of Trinitarians that are confused on what they believe just like it seems some oneness people are.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

There is a problem with your assessment of what trinnys believe. It is their own creed.

One God, three persons.

Coequal, coeternal, coexistent.

Doesn't sound like a different understanding. Sounds like a different doctrine.

Originally Posted by Chan

Trinitarians didn't start using the word "person" of "persons" in the trinity until it came to exist in the English language (which did not exist at the time the Nicene fathers formulated the Nicene and Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creeds). The Nicene and Ante-Nicene fathers used the Greek word prosopon or the Latin word persona to individually describe Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In the fifth century, Cyril insisted that hypostasis should be used in the places of prosopon, contrary to the way hypostasis is used in Hebrews 1:3 for God alone and not individually for Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted by Chan

Which of the early Creeds (the Nicene, Nicene-Constantinopolitan) says "one God, three persons" or "co-equal, co-eternal, co-existent"? Quoting from the Athanasian Creed (which was not written by Athanasius and didn't even come about until a couple of centuries later) doesn't count.

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

You know I have read the creed and talk with many people that have studied on it. There is a common denominator in these discussions. Most of them believe that when it is using the term "three persons" that it is accually meant to be that the word "persons" should have been manifestaions. That it was not intended to be the word "persons" as we understand it today. Like you, MOW and I are three different people. It was intended to mean three offices or manifestations.
Also with the Co's, it was intended to be that the offices of God are Coequal, Coeternal, and Coexistent from the mindset that if Jesus is Father, Son and Spirit that He did not stop being the Father when He came as Jesus and was never the Spirit until Jesus died. It accually means that God is all the Co's because He is all of the offices, manifestations, persons, forms, etc. all at one time. It is not intended that there is three individual bodies 1 God, 2 Jesus, 3 Spirit. It is accually saying that He can exist in all forms at all times.

But Brother, if they may mean to agree with our thinking why are they so vehemently predisposed to call us a cult because of our view on the Godhead? The reason is that modern trinitarianism views the term "persons" to represent what we normally think of a person as. Distinction. Not in manifestation - but in presence of being.

We can all talk about what was ORIGINALLY MEANT by trinitarians but the simple truth is we are all left with what is presently accepted by modern trinitarians. That is the One God-three persons ideal. Coequal, coexistent, coeternal.

Surely none of you deny the reality that orthodox trinitarianism accepts the notion of God in three persons?

[sola gratia]

Originally Posted by H2H

Ok so you say they are educating the layperson? Can I get some good Trinitarian reference material on the rejection of the common usage of persons?

99.9% of Christianity is focused on reaching the lost? You do yourself a disservice.

It never crossed my mind that one should fully understand the godhead to be saved.

I did not say that - I said the make up 99.9% of Christianity......

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by sola gratia

I did not say that - I said the make up 99.9% of Christianity......

What are you saying? That 99.9% of Christianity doesn't believe the three persons dogma?

[sola gratia]

Originally Posted by H2H

Ok so you say they are educating the layperson? Can I get some good Trinitarian reference material on the rejection of the common usage of persons?

99.9% of Christianity is focused on reaching the lost? You do yourself a disservice.

It never crossed my mind that one should fully understand the godhead to be saved.

You wont find them reject the term - but they do attempt to define it better

Trinity (Triunity) of God
J. Hampton Keathley III Dallas Theological Seminary

Person: In speaking of the Triunity, the term “person” is not used in same way it is in ordinary usage in which it means an identity completely distinct from other persons. Actually the word persons could detract from the unity of the Trinity. According to the teaching of Scripture, the three Persons are inseparable, interdependent, and eternally united in one Divine Being.

It is evident that the word “person” is not ideal for the purpose. Orthodox writers have struggled over this term. Some have opted for the term subsistence (the mode or quality of existence), hence, “God has three substances.” Most have continued to use persons because we have not been able to find a better term. “The word substance speaks of God’s essential nature or being and subsistence describes His mode or quality of existence.”