Scripture interpretation

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I personally don’t believe God made a covenant with Hagar. I instead understand that he made a promise. While a covenant does contain a promise, in my opinion, a promise doesn’t necessarily include a covenant.

God didn’t make a covenant with Sarah, He made a promise. God didn’t make a covenant with Hagar, He made a promise. Yet, all covenants include promises.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What are you trying to say Don? Could you give me a condensed version?

I think he is saying people can go to heaven without being born again.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I think he is saying people can go to heaven without being born again.

As I was reading his lengthy tome of a post (I tend to be wordy myself) I kind of thought the same thing. Yet, I thought maybe I was missing something that Don could skinny it down for me. Therefore not wanting to start another ecclesiastical wrestling match here in another thread.

So, Don, could you please condense your thought in a few words? I mean sometimes these discussions are like homework. Many times I just read posts I disagree with and ponder "is this going to be worth the trouble?" I usually give in and end up loosing friends, and get disfellowshipped. Since you are a foreigner, and pretty much left the Apostolic faith in the weeds, I don't mind if you don't like me. But, I asked you to join in another discussion on a topic you would enjoy. I feel obligated to parley with you if you did. Yet, I'm really not looking to discuss some baloney on how God loves everyone and wants to save everyone. No matter what theology or ideology they hold.

Anyway, could you please place your apples of gold in pictures of silver a little lower on the shelf so I could understand?

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What is the covenant language used in regards to Adam? Not saying there wasn't an Adamic Covenant, just trying to identify the basis for saying there definitely was.

Before the Fall:

Covenant Scriptures:

[Genesis 1:28-30 NKJV] 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth." 29 And God said, "See, I have given you every herb [that] yields seed which [is] on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 "Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for food"; and it was so.

[Genesis 2:15-17 NKJV] 15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

[Hosea 6:7 YLT] 7 And they, as Adam, transgressed a covenant, There they dealt treacherously against me.

Participants: God and Adam
Provisions: multiply, subdue, have dominion, keep the Garden, stay away from the tree of good and evil, death as penalty for disobedience.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

How ironic. We are quoting portions of the same passage on different threads. With opposing views.

Faith without works is dead (James 2:26), but equally, works without faith are also dead (1 Corinthians 13:1-3). For just as faith without action is futile, so too are actions without faith in God's power and grace (Hebrews 11:6). True spiritual life and vitality come from combining genuine faith with obedient works (John 14:15, Romans 8:2).

scripture references:
- James 2:26: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
- 1 Corinthians 13:1-3: "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal... And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing."
- Hebrews 11:6: "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
- John 14:15: "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
- Romans 8:2: "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Before the Fall:

Covenant Scriptures:

[Genesis 1:28-30 NKJV] 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth." 29 And God said, "See, I have given you every herb [that] yields seed which [is] on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 "Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for food"; and it was so.

[Genesis 2:15-17 NKJV] 15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

What I had hoped to point out about Noah's covenant was, that God had asked something of Noah and he then said that he was making a covenant, making this an example of covenant making and making covenants very uncomplicated. Elements of covenants then are: 1. God asks someone to do something. 2. Any one doing what God asks has entered a covenant by obedience to God's will. Adam's experience was the same as Noah. God asked him to do something. Adam did it. If the Noah story conveys covenant making rightly, then Noah wasn't the first to make covenant. Adam was. The example from Adam I was using was the apple. I too agree that the other requirements of Adam and Eve, ie go and multiply, (and other things too) have covenant elements (I just didn't want to get into it for time reasons) if we are basing our covenant definition on what happened with Noah.

[Hosea 6:7 YLT] 7 And they, as Adam, transgressed a covenant, There they dealt treacherously against me. [B]Very interesting verse, and I wasn't aware of this. Thx. It reinforces my main thought because the word covenant isn't used in Ge1-3. /B]

Participants: God and Adam
Provisions: multiply, subdue, have dominion, keep the Garden, stay away from the tree of good and evil, death as penalty for disobedience.

.

[diakonos]

I only believe in 2 covenants per hebrews 9.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

[Hosea 6:7 YLT] 7 And they, as Adam, transgressed a covenant, There they dealt treacherously against me.

Hosea 6:4-7 KJV
O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away. [5] Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth. [6] For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. [7] But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

Uhhh...

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Hosea 6:4-7 KJV
O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away. [5] Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth. [6] For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. [7] But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

Uhhh...

Yup, Young Literal Translation. The question is, is “like men” the correct interpretation? Let the direct context: the sentence itself, say it.
But, even without that verse, the evidence of a covenant is in Gen.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Yup, Young Literal Translation. The question is, is “like men” the correct interpretation? Let the direct context: the sentence itself, say it.
But, even without that verse, the evidence of a covenant is in Gen.

But without that verse I just see God telling Adam what He is to do, not necessarily making a covenant with him. Although I don't think there's a problem with saying Adam was in covenant with God in a general sense of having a special relationship with Him. Yet creating a theological system with epochs like "The Adamic Covenant" strikes me as pushing things a bit much and getting outside the Scripture's presentation of doctrine.

At the end of the day, does it make a difference?