Chris reed joins the ministry elite

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I am actually coming more and more to the conclusion that paid full time ministry is not a good idea.

During the times of Jesus, the culture was that teachers were supposed to have a job. They were encouraged to arrange their lives so they could dedicate themselves as much as possible to the Torah and its teachings while keeping work. The saying was that the teacher that has no profession can't be a good teacher. Some did that by having periods of hard work and periods of not working. Traveling teachers expenses were the only thing expected to be fully covered, and usually by the means of hospitality, not salaries. This is explained in the Jewish Encyclopedia from 1906, and can also be seen in the Didache.

I believe you are referencing the Ethics of the Fathers? "Rabbi Gamaliel the son of Rabbi Judah Hanasi said: excellent is the study of the Torah when combined with a worldly occupation, for toil in them both keeps sin out of one’s mind; But [study of the] Torah which is not combined with a worldly occupation, in the end comes to be neglected and becomes the cause of sin. And all who labor with the community, should labor with them for the sake of Heaven, for the merit of their forefathers sustains them (the community), and their (the forefather’s) righteousness endures for ever; And as for you, [God in such case says] I credit you with a rich reward, as if you [yourselves] had [actually] accomplished [it all]."

Basically gives the opinion that those who study Torah, should be combine with a trade. Because Torah study alone without work will in the end be nullified and lead to a sinful life. Which in Modern Israel most Yeshivas have students who live off welfare. One must always keep in mind that Rabbinical Talmudism isn't monolithic. Rabbinical Talmudic Judaism is highly debatable. That's not my opinion, that is actually how it is structured. The rabbis debate the Torah, and give their many conclusions. The Didache pretty much echoes the thoughts of the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 9. Preachers who settle among the people must not be burdensome, never ask for money. The people are to support the ministry, but only if he is a true prophet, teacher. Only then are they worthy of the support of the people. What happens to the Chris Reeds of the world is that all they know is being a snake oil hucksters. They aren't delusional where they do what they do and believe in God at the same time. They are fully aware they are ecclesiastical criminals, and would steal the gold fillings out of your head, rather than pray them into your head.

Reason being they have a death grip on the pulpit. They won't dig ditches and they won't stock shelves in Target. They want to hit the heights, and live in a mansion right here on earth. They want the reward now, and lifting bags of cement into a wheelbarrow isn't part of the equation.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I believe you are referencing the Ethics of the Fathers? "Rabbi Gamaliel the son of Rabbi Judah Hanasi said: excellent is the study of the Torah when combined with a worldly occupation, for toil in them both keeps sin out of one’s mind; But [study of the] Torah which is not combined with a worldly occupation, in the end comes to be neglected and becomes the cause of sin. And all who labor with the community, should labor with them for the sake of Heaven, for the merit of their forefathers sustains them (the community), and their (the forefather’s) righteousness endures for ever; And as for you, [God in such case says] I credit you with a rich reward, as if you [yourselves] had [actually] accomplished [it all]."

Basically gives the opinion that those who study Torah, should be combine with a trade. Because Torah study alone without work will in the end be nullified and lead to a sinful life. Which in Modern Israel most Yeshivas have students who live off welfare. One must always keep in mind that Rabbinical Talmudism isn't monolithic. Rabbinical Talmudic Judaism is highly debatable. That's not my opinion, that is actually how it is structured. The rabbis debate the Torah, and give their many conclusions. The Didache pretty much echoes the thoughts of the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 9. Preachers who settle among the people must not be burdensome, never ask for money. The people are to support the ministry, but only if he is a true prophet, teacher. Only then are they worthy of the support of the people. What happens to the Chris Reeds of the world is that all they know is being a snake oil hucksters. They aren't delusional where they do what they do and believe in God at the same time. They are fully aware they are ecclesiastical criminals, and would steal the gold fillings out of your head, rather than pray them into your head.

Reason being they have a death grip on the pulpit. They won't dig ditches and they won't stock shelves in Target. They want to hit the heights, and live in a mansion right here on earth. They want the reward now, and lifting bags of cement into a wheelbarrow isn't part of the equation.

I personally have no problem with supporting full time ministry. I see the call to show hospitality to the preachers and the teachers too (gal 6:6) and I also see sending support, not just hospitality.

Perhaps that can be applied all the way to full time support all the way to retirement for congregations that can afford it, because, after all, the support in the NT was to allow for ministers to dedicate the needed time by some financial support.

That being said, sometimes, I do wonder if the application is a little bit stretched after I have seen the results of it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I personally have no problem with supporting full time ministry. I see the call to show hospitality to the preachers and the teachers too (gal 6:6) and I also see sending support, not just hospitality.

Perhaps that can be applied all the way to full time support all the way to retirement for congregations that can afford it, because, after all, the support in the NT was to allow for ministers to dedicate the needed time by some financial support.

That being said, sometimes, I do wonder if the application is a little bit stretched after I have seen the results of it.

You are so correct. It is just what happens when bad examples get a hold of positions of trust and authority. Hence you have a duty to never allow it to happen under your watch. Children and animals are innocent, they need protection and care by those who are responsible for them. Yet, there are some horrifying stories of them being abused. Jesus warned that anyone harming a child would be better off being drowned in the sea, and a weight tied around their neck. The mark of the godly is seen by how they care for their animals, and the mark of the wicked is that they mistreat their animals. I said all that to say this, while we have some brutal examples around us, we should never see the examples as being a standard, which would cause good examples to suffer. There are great men and women who love the people of God, and would lay down their lives to see those in their church families prosper. Support isn't even in their focus, only souls. Elders should be able to survive even without support from the church family. The Apostle Paul said he would rather die, then make his glorying void, 1 Corinthians 9:15. Everything he penned out in 1 Corinthians 9 wasn't written so people would give support out of coercion. The Apostle was more than capable to support himself, and those other elders who were with him. I hope you are doing well coksiw, and your ministry, and church family are also prospering In Jesus name.